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Historic preservation within Wilderness is and should be:
Legal
83%
 83%  [ 59 ]
Illegal
16%
 16%  [ 12 ]
Total Votes : 71

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RodF
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PostMon Dec 19, 2016 2:08 pm 
RumiDude wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Wilderness Watch at least on a few particular issues. A couple examples are the Green Mountain LO (which I know I am in the minority here on this board) and the Cumberland Island mess.
Congress did not agree that the outcome of either of these cases served the public good. It nullified the outcome of both, with a minor revision the boundaries of Cumberland Island Wilderness in 2004 and to preserve Green Mountain Lookout in 2014. I'm guessing you found elements of their arguments in both cases to agree with? I can understand that. But these lawsuits were simply means to an end. Do you agree the outcome WW sought in these cases served the public good, or agree that Congress did? I'd argue that Congress did right, and WW did not serve the public good, which is what they claim to and should do. The best one can say is that Congress should've passed these laws earlier, so these lawsuits could never have been brought. But no one claims Congress is perfect, nor should anyone argue harming the public good is a desirable way to force them perfect their laws. Both Congress and the agencies are human and imperfect. WW may be right in pointing that out. But if their goal in doing so does not serve the public good, then they're wrong to do so.

"of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt" - John Muir "the wild is not the opposite of cultivated. It is the opposite of the captivated” - Vandana Shiva
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JVesquire
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PostMon Dec 19, 2016 4:37 pm 
The court's decision noted that ONP found itself arguing a position between two extremes, that of WW and NTHP. I supported WW's position, but note that friends who work in these agencies have said that if they find themselves in the middle position of two advocacy organizations, that's good clarification that they're doing the right thing. wink.gif

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DIYSteve
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PostTue Dec 20, 2016 3:27 pm 
JVesquire wrote:
The court's decision noted that ONP found itself arguing a position between two extremes, that of WW and NTHP. I supported WW's position, but note that friends who work in these agencies have said that if they find themselves in the middle position of two advocacy organizations, that's good clarification that they're doing the right thing. wink.gif
Good points. Putting the ruling into perspective: The court's ruling was based on the arbitrary and capricious standard of review and principles of primary jurisdiction. That is, the court's role was to determine whether: (a) NPS duly compiled an evidence-based record; (b) that the record supported NPS findings; and (c) that NPS did not act arbitrarily or capriciously in determining that the reconstruction of the shelter was within the restrictions of the Wilderness Act when read in concert with other statutes. The NPS was given discretion to interpret the Act because it played by the rules. (Contrast the USFS in the GMLO case where the agency thwarted the rules and was therefore not given such deference.) The deference given to the NPS in the specific case is manifested by the court's observation that (in connection with the tools used) "although the court might disagree with the Park Service's ultimate conclusions. . . it cannot say that the agency arbitrarily and capriciously determined what tools [to use for the reconstruction]." What the court did not do: The court did not make a ruling that reconstruction of historic structures is generally permitted under the Wilderness Act. FTR, although my personal preference would have been to allow nature to take its course, I am personally fine with the decision because the outcome was consistent with proper operation of the Wilderness Act (when read in concert with other statutes) and fundamentals of administrative law. I am also fine with WW and similar groups testing the limits of agencies' interpretations and application of the Wilderness Act.

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RumiDude
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PostTue Dec 20, 2016 7:22 pm 
BigSteve wrote:
I am also fine with WW and similar groups testing the limits of agencies' interpretations and application of the Wilderness Act.
This is part of what I was trying to express earlier. Things change in government when people act upon their beliefs which are contrary to current policy. We may not agree with the changes or the status quo, but can't tell others to stop trying because we disagree with them. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Malachai Constant
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Malachai Constant
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PostTue Dec 20, 2016 7:31 pm 
If you remove interest/advocacy groups right to sue the government you are on the road to tyranny and it does not matter if it is Wilderness Watch or the NRA.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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RodF
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PostWed Dec 21, 2016 1:45 pm 
BigSteve wrote:
What the court did not do: The court did not make a ruling that reconstruction of historic structures is generally permitted under the Wilderness Act.
Neither plaintiff nor defendants sought such a ruling. What the court did not do is rule that maintenance of historic structures in Wilderness is generally forbidden under the Wilderness Act, as plaintiff argued, nor find that NPS had failed to comply with NEPA, as plaintiff claimed, nor order that historic structures be removed from Wilderness, as plaintiff sought.

"of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt" - John Muir "the wild is not the opposite of cultivated. It is the opposite of the captivated” - Vandana Shiva
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DIYSteve
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PostThu Dec 22, 2016 9:02 am 
A week ago you made the deceptively overly generalized claim that:
RodF wrote:
The court agrees with the majority of NWhikers polled here: historic preservation is legal within Wilderness.
Now you are walking it back:
RodF wrote:
What the court did not do is rule that maintenance of historic structures in Wilderness is generally forbidden under the Wilderness Act
I made my point.

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RodF
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PostThu Dec 22, 2016 1:32 pm 
Steve, I suggest you read the court's ruling. "The Park Service’s consideration of how to best manage manmade structures and wilderness in Olympic National Park, both before and after the Wilderness Act, has been thorough and consistent. Therefore, the Court defers to the Park Service’s conclusion that historic preservation furthers a goal of the Wilderness Act, and the Park Service’s actions here were appropriate if they were the minimum necessary. See 16 U.S.C. § 1133(c)." - page 17. "Because the Court owes deference to the Park Service’s interpretation of historic structures as a benefit offered by an enduring wilderness, the operative question is whether the Park Service made an adequately reasoned determination of necessity." - page 19. Reviewing the Administrative Record, the court concludes "Indeed, the record as a whole—what the Court is charged with reviewing—demonstrates the agency made a reasoned finding of necessity by determining both that the structures are necessary to preserve historic values in Olympic National Park and that it was necessary to repair each one." - p. 20. I stand by my statement: the court ruled that historic preservation is legal within Wilderness.

"of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt" - John Muir "the wild is not the opposite of cultivated. It is the opposite of the captivated” - Vandana Shiva
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RodF
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PostSun Dec 25, 2016 4:09 pm 
Judge: Olympic National Park right to repair cabins Peninsula Daily News front page article "In a Friday interview, Creachbaum said she was 'thrilled' by the outcome of the case and 'very happy that we can continue to use our management expertise to take care of all of the resources in the park.' Olympic National Park respects the tenets of the Wilderness Act by maintaining historic structures and the wilderness characteristics of the park, Creachbaum said. "Last June, the National Trust for Historic Preservation, the Washington Trust for Historic Preservation and Friends of Olympic National Park filed a motion to intervene in the lawsuit, defending the park. 'It’s always nice to be supported by your community,' Creachbaum said." Shelters to remain at Olympic National Park Kitsap Sun article "Olympic National Park, the National Trust for Historic Preservation and Friends of Olympic National Park got themselves a sparkling early Christmas present last week. "Five shelters were specifically protected by the ruling, although it is likely the Enchanted Valley Chalet has a better chance of surviving as a result of Judge Leighton's decision." Court rules in favor of retaining historic structures in Olympic National Park Daily World article "When asked if the court decision would impact the status of the Enchanted Valley Chalet, Brian Turner, of the preservation group, said 'The park has been proceeding with its planning process for the Enchanted Valley Chalet with the expectation that the court would sanction its process for balancing National Historic Preservation Act and Wilderness Act requirements. It amended its scoping notice last summer, for instance, to include a relocation alternative.' The preservationists submitted their public comment about the chalet in August, which favored the relocation alternative to save the building rather than demolishing it or allowing the changing river bed to sweep it away."

"of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt" - John Muir "the wild is not the opposite of cultivated. It is the opposite of the captivated” - Vandana Shiva
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reststep
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PostSun Dec 25, 2016 6:07 pm 
Here is a link to the Kitsap Sun article written by Seabury Blair Jr. Link

"The mountains are calling and I must go." - John Muir
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mike
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PostSun Dec 25, 2016 8:01 pm 
RodF wrote:
I stand by my statement: the court ruled that historic preservation is legal within Wilderness.
I'm reading a ruling only in this specific case.

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RodF
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PostMon Dec 26, 2016 5:31 pm 
mike wrote:
I'm reading a ruling only in this specific case.
For a full understanding of this ruling, one must read the motions made to the court by plaintiff and defense, and the previous cases and Administrative Record the judge chose to cite in his ruling. In short: Wilderness Watch claimed "Wilderness trumps historic preservation" so demands that all historic structures be removed or allowed to decay. NPS claims historic preservation laws apply within Wilderness, not only here but nationally. This was all argued back in 2006 (see Olympic NP Final General Management Plan EIS, volume 2, pages 96-99, especially page 98), which is a key part of the 7000+ page Administrative Record and is cited in the ruling. This ruling confirms NPS was right all along.

"of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt" - John Muir "the wild is not the opposite of cultivated. It is the opposite of the captivated” - Vandana Shiva
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Ski
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PostFri Dec 30, 2016 6:49 pm 
BigSteve wrote:
A week ago you made the deceptively overly generalized claim that:
huh? How is Rod's statement "deceptively overly generalized"? The poll results show a majority (80%) of those who took part in the poll feel that "historic preservation is legal in wilderness". The court's decision certainly looks to me like it's been established as a point of law that "historic preservation within wilderness" is legal. I read the ruling twice. Was there something I missed? I'm happy to see that Wilderness Watch got their ass handed to them on a plate on this deal. Go back several months and look at their first press releases on this issue in which they used bogus claims, false accusations, and outright lies to garner support for their case. Maybe next time they decide to file a lawsuit against NPS or NFS they'll stick to a fact-based argument and take into consideration the other federal statutes that come into play on issues like this, instead of trying to push their "Wilderness Act of 1964 trumps all" agenda.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Humptulips
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PostFri Dec 30, 2016 11:15 pm 
Ski, My one gripe about you is you keep using the acronym NFS? I think you mean USFS. I know, what a nitpicker!

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Ski
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PostTue Jan 03, 2017 12:49 am 
NFS = National Forest Service There is no possibility your pedanticism could excel mine. lol.gif

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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