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WANative
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WANative
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 Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:42 pm |
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| treeswarper wrote: | | This is another damned if the did, and damned if they didn't situation. |
Yup. Hindsight is always 20/20. Only 247 acres were cut along 50 miles....that's what the big deal is.
Without any real "evil polluters" or actual environmental damage occurring, embellishing, exaggeration and making mountains out molehills becomes par for the course.
I guess it's better to watch hundreds of thousands of acres burn rather than cut a couple hundred.
Of course then if the disaster never strikes, you're just an idiot who cried wolf.
I have learned that those who are the most judgemental and most critical, especially in regards to environmental issues, are simply people who don't do anything. Their entire existence consists of doing nothing while acting as experts on everything and doing their best to appear perfect while telling everyone else that what they are doing is bad.
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
Joined: 25 Dec 2006
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treeswarper
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Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:52 pm |
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On the other hand, in 1986 our fire crew sat, along with dozers and other crews while we waited several hours for a decision to be made about building a wide fireline. We got a nice and much needed rest as we'd been there for a week and had spent a week on another fire before.
This fire had a habit of blowing up every day around noon. It was in bug killed lodgepole for the most part.
The forest specialists were discussing how the wide fireline would affect the visual quality of the area. We got the go ahead around 11:30. A bit of fireline was constructed and then the fire blew up and we retreated to a safe area and let it burn. You can't stop a fire like that, but you sometimes can herd it around. In hindsight, I would guess that the wide fireline would have been futile.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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jinx'sboy
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Joined: 30 Jul 2008
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| edeezy wrote: | | jinx'sboy wrote: | | Look at the lead picture. I believe those are BURNT logs, yet the story says the fire never got close to the disputed fireline. |
The area had burned in the past. |
Some of it has but much of it has not.
It is pretty easy to tell a recently burned log from one that is several years old.
Also, NO ONE is going to buy a 2, 3 or 5 yr old burned log - it has zero value other than for firewood (maybe).
The logs in the picture in question burned in 2015. My question is where was it taken? Alternatively, the picture is of some unrelated salvage?
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Ringangleclaw
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| jinx'sboy wrote: | | It is pretty easy to tell a recently burned log from one that is several years old. |
And I don't see any in the photo that so are so upset about.
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Dalekz
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Dalekz
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Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:41 am |
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When I was travelling over Stevens Pass for hikes 7/8 & 7/13 there were a lot of full log trucks heading westbound (didn't count but think at least 20-30). The must have been going to the Everett mill. Wonder if they were from this.
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treeswarper
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treeswarper
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Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:11 am |
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| Dalekz wrote: | | When I was travelling over Stevens Pass for hikes 7/8 & 7/13 there were a lot of full log trucks heading westbound (didn't count but think at least 20-30). The must have been going to the Everett mill. Wonder if they were from this. |
I doubt it. On the forms I found, the expiration date on those sales was June 30. They could have gotten an extension, but on salvage wood, getting it to the mill as fast as possible is the way to go.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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treeswarper
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treeswarper
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Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:33 pm |
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Reading this thread 2015 Wolverine Fire might be educational and jog memories. Lots of The Forest Service Needs To Do More To STOP The Fire comments.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Stefan
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Stefan
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Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:01 pm |
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The "fire line" was mostly road.
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Ski
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Ski
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Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:10 pm |
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treeswarper:
As you have pointed out here several times in "fire" threads of the past, it's an "out of sight, out of mind" deal.
If the fires are actively burning, people are demanding action immediately and fretting about NFS or <insert lands management agency name here> not doing enough to put the fires out.
The inevitable fall rains come, and everybody forgets all about fires and they start bitching about off-leash dogs, guns, litter on the trails, or some other nonsense.
If and when NFS or <insert lands management agency name here> chooses to actually do something about the fire, there are always those who bitch about them doing it and the crybabies who whine about the consequent results of combating a wildfire, few of whom would know the difference between a Pulaski and a grub hoe and their ass unless they had detailed instructions.
It was a 114-acre cut. Big deal. That's about.... what.... 3 or 4 WalMart parking lots?
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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tomastaylor
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I've been in the fire line area several times since the fire line was cut. As far as I can tell, the fire line follows existing roads. I snapped this photo of the fire line area off of the steep road heading up to Maverick Saddle:
A few weeks ago my family and I hiked the back road into Twin Lakes (behind Dirty Face). Again, the fire line followed Meadow Creek road (and the fire line stopped at the wilderness boundary). The fire line was thinned out, certainly not cleared out:
From Maverick Saddle, the fire line follows the ridge road to Sugarloaf. The vine maples and other small trees (that have grown back since the Entiat fire) have been trimmed on either side of the road. There's no 300' wide corridor along the road.
Hiking up in the Miner's Ridge area of Entiat Ridge, the area is still pretty devastated from the fire a couple of decades ago, but it is recovering.
I'm grateful for the rains that stopped the Wolverine Fire from coming down the Chiwawa.
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edeezy
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edeezy
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Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:31 pm |
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| Ski wrote: | | How do you get "balanced take" out of one side of the story? "Balanced" would have been quotes from the Wildland Fire Managers, the District Ranger, and those involved in the decision-making process, not just the ecologists and other "ologists" (to borrow tw's term) who went in after the fact or subordinates who were overruled by superiors. |
The OWNF supervisor is quoted about all the crazy stuff that was happening around the decision. The incident commander is quoted talking about how even though rain had began weather could change and it was a dry year. A former firefighter talks about how it's better to be conservative when it comes to fire risks and take steps to contain them even if the risk is largely passed. There's an explanation that fuel breaks are commonly used and necessary because of decades of fire suppression.
The criticism here is not so much that the line was cut but that it was treated as an emergency situation, allowing environmental protections to be ignored, even after it was clear the Wolverine Fire was not going to be a threat. At that point it would have been prudent to step back and do the proper environmental reviews before continuing to cut the line. The "-ologists" would not be employed by the Forest Service if their expertise and opinions were not important to forest management, their objections to environmental protections being ignored in a non-emergency situation are valid.
Both sides of the story were clearly presented. I don't really care about the acreage cut, I agree it's not a big deal. I do care about doing unnecessary damage to streams and sensitive areas. Reading that article and coming away with the idea Mapes was baselessly attacking the Forest Service and only presenting one side of the issue is at the very least an uncharitable reading.
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Ski
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Ski
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Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:04 pm |
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Really?
I'm supposed to be convinced we got a "balanced" report in light of the photos posted just above?
Are you serious?
Where's this big monstrous "clear cut" that was supposedly cut?
| edeezy wrote: | | "The criticism here is not so much that the line was cut but that it was treated as an emergency situation..." |
(emphasis added)
I am assuming "here" means here in this forum - on this website. So I have to ask: where's the criticism coming from? Professional forest managers, silviculturalists, botanists, fisheries biologists, and career wildland firefighters? Or urban-dwelling laymen doing their obligatory "armchair quarterbacking" thing?
Please indicate for me those nwhikers.net members who are credentialed, degreed professionals with field experience in any of the above occupations I mentioned above and I'll go back and re-read all their posts.
Or maybe you can pick out a few off the Seattle Times comment page.
Or maybe I'm supposed to be convinced that people employed in other fields are more knowledgeable? Like journalists? 
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Ski
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Ski
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Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:23 pm |
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| edeezy wrote: | | "...unnecessary damage to streams and sensitive areas..." |
Kindly direct me to the evidence of this "damage" that supposedly occurred.
If the photos posted just above by tomastaylor are the cited "clearcut" in the article, I have no reason to believe even one word of Mape's article.
Conjuring up "facts" out of thin air is certainly nothing new in the world of "journalism". We have a couple members here who do it on a regular basis.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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edeezy
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edeezy
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Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:33 pm |
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| Ski wrote: | | I am assuming "here" means here in this forum - on this website. So I have to ask: where's the criticism coming from? Professional forest managers, silviculturalists, botanists, fisheries biologists, and career wildland firefighters? |
No, "here" referred to the article. At least one botanist and fisheries biologist had criticisms of how the logging was done and the unnecessary damage it caused to the ecosystem. A professional forest manager acknowledged that there was a lot of stuff going on when they made the decision. A career wildland fire professional (don't know whether or not he was ever a firefighter, just that he's high in the ranks of the fire management ranks) offered some compelling arguments for the fireline that I happen to agree with. Reiterating, it was a balanced account. Those pictures give an idea of what the line is like in one part but it's 50 miles long.
From your posts I can only assume you had an impression of what the article was going to be about before you read it and didn't really pay attention except to pick out things you could rail against. I've made my point several times now, I'll bow out.
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edeezy
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edeezy
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Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:36 pm |
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Just saw your other post.
| Ski wrote: | | Kindly direct me to the evidence of this "damage" that supposedly occurred. |
I trust the multiple scientists quoted in the article. If you have questions I'm sure you could contact Mapes or those scientists.
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