Forum Index > Stewardship > China's domination of the solar industry - Scientific American
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gb
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gb
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PostSun Jan 01, 2017 11:14 am 
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Interesting article on forces within China that may lead it to not only dominate solar energy but to shape energy transmission around the world. They clearly have the capital. Will the US miss the opportunity? Will China take the lead in reducing pollution and greenhouse gas emissions? Will the US sit on it's thumbs in support of a dinosaur?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-china-is-dominating-the-solar-industry/?WT.mc_id=SA_FB_ENGYSUS_NEWS
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WANative
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PostSun Jan 01, 2017 12:26 pm 
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gb wrote:
Interesting article on forces within China that may lead it to not only dominate solar energy but to shape energy transmission around the world. They clearly have the capital. Will the US miss the opportunity? Will China take the lead in reducing pollution and greenhouse gas emissions? Will the US sit on it's thumbs in support of a dinosaur?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-china-is-dominating-the-solar-industry/?WT.mc_id=SA_FB_ENGYSUS_NEWS

Environmentalists chased almost all manufacturing and resource extraction out of the United States into China.

It would be hard for us to "lead" in this area when you won't allow any sort of industrial development.
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RandyHiker
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PostSun Jan 01, 2017 5:53 pm 
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WANative wrote:
Environmentalists chased almost all manufacturing and resource extraction out of the United States into China.

It would be hard for us to "lead" in this area when you won't allow any sort of industrial development.

That's bunk.  EPA regulations have a marginal effect on costs, it's the labor costs and lack of fair labor laws that the major factors that have moved manufacturing.

It's also an illusion to thing that repealing regulations, further union busting and erecting trade barriers will result in large gains in US manufacturing employment.  When new factories have opened in the USA in the last twenty years they are highly automated with nearly all of work being done by robots.
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gb
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gb
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PostSun Jan 01, 2017 6:22 pm 
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WANative wrote:
Environmentalists chased almost all manufacturing and resource extraction out of the United States into China.

Those darn environmentalists have so much power! wink.gif

If you believe what you wrote, I've got a bridge I will sell you.
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Schroder
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PostMon Jan 02, 2017 4:07 pm 
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RandyHiker wrote:
That's bunk.  EPA regulations have a marginal effect on costs

It certainly did in the industry I retired from - Pulp and Paper and related chemicals.  But it was a lot more too: cheaper labor, cheaper raw materials, cheaper transportation, cheaper energy.
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drm
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PostMon Jan 02, 2017 4:31 pm 
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The thing that the US did to chase manufacturing jobs to China was to get a middle class lifestyle - and want to keep it. I saw an interview about the Carrier plant; prior to the president elect's involvement, the workers were told they would need to take a pay cut to $15/hour to keep those jobs in the US. And China subsidizes industries a lot too, though I don't know how that compares to US subsidies wrt solar.
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WANative
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PostMon Jan 02, 2017 7:42 pm 
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gb wrote:
Those darn environmentalists have so much power! wink.gif

You actually do.

Yet you also hold two diametrically opposing viewpoints. You want the United States to lead in the manufacture of electronics while at the same time opposing any mining of the minerals, metals and oils needed to do so as well as clearing land to build buildings with the final in the coffin being that you make it impossible to sell on the world market with bloated unnecessary labor costs in the form of the ridiculous entitlements and minimum wages.

gb wrote:
If you believe what you wrote, I've got a bridge I will sell you

It was an incomplete rant but yes, it's definitely a strong factor.

I can't say this without it maybe coming across as a personal attack, but unless you own a manufacturing business, have tried to start one, have applied for things like building permits etc then you have to get off your high horse as you have no credibility to comment on the issue. I don't know a single person who has done the above things that would share in your viewpoints.

The last thing to keep in mind is the fact that United States has the most stringent environmental laws in the world, thus we have the cleanest air and water and already lead in the areas you speak of.
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WANative
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PostTue Jan 03, 2017 12:29 am 
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Essentially once the mainstream environmental movement got results that were beneficial to us all and reduced actual pollutants, those people went back to minding their own business.

The fringe idealists had to keep going.

They had to invent new pollutants to rally against because that's all they know.

Thus the Ozone was disappearing! We're all at a slightly increased risk over-tanning if we don't do something!!

Now, a common neutral gas is the pollutant du jour because it might cause the weather to change. Oh the humanity!
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gb
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PostWed Jan 04, 2017 6:32 pm 
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WANative wrote:
Essentially once the mainstream environmental movement got results that were beneficial to us all and reduced actual pollutants, those people went back to minding their own business.

The fringe idealists had to keep going.

They had to invent new pollutants to rally against because that's all they know.

Thus the Ozone was disappearing! We're all at a slightly increased risk over-tanning if we don't do something!!

Now, a common neutral gas is the pollutant du jour because it might cause the weather to change. Oh the humanity!

You should try reading some time, you might learn something.

And the US is 26th for environmental standards not 1st as you wrongly believe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_Performance_Index

But that has nothing to do with this thread. The reasons for the US loss of the lead in the solar industry which is rapidly growing worldwide has to to with economic factors primarily to do with China and China capitalists leading the push to lead the industry.

You would have known that if you had read the article, but no you had to go off on an irrelevant rant. dizzy.gif
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drm
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PostThu Jan 05, 2017 10:06 am 
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I posted in a different thread about the carbon payback time for solar panels and how it had dropped. One thing I remember from that article was that solar panels manufactured in China have a much higher carbon footprint, so China's domination of this industry is slowing down the rate at which the payback time is falling. Solar panels manufactured in the US or Germany payback the carbon from their manufacture much faster than those manufactured in China because they generate far less during manufacture.
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WANative
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PostThu Jan 05, 2017 10:54 am 
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drm wrote:
Solar panels manufactured in the US or Germany payback the carbon from their manufacture much faster than those manufactured in China because they generate far less during manufacture

No, no no. China is an environmental leader!
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gb
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gb
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PostThu Jan 05, 2017 4:52 pm 
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drm wrote:
I posted in a different thread about the carbon payback time for solar panels and how it had dropped. One thing I remember from that article was that solar panels manufactured in China have a much higher carbon footprint, so China's domination of this industry is slowing down the rate at which the payback time is falling. Solar panels manufactured in the US or Germany payback the carbon from their manufacture much faster than those manufactured in China because they generate far less during manufacture.

Here is something from the watchdog for the industry SVTC, but dated in 2014 by way of National Geographic:

National Geographic 2014 article
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boot up
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boot up
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PostTue Jan 10, 2017 9:02 am 
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its hard to compete with a country in the manufacturing sector, that relies on slave labor, and has no OSHA or EPA requirements.    Plus they steal most of their technology, so development costs are minimal.

China is an ecological disaster, yet the USA is always trotted out as the villain for pollution.

--------------
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drm
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PostTue Jan 10, 2017 10:28 am 
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boot up wrote:
China is an ecological disaster, yet the USA is always trotted out as the villain for pollution.

I think you would see something very different if you read Chinese blogs. Not so long ago the US Embassy in Beijing started posting live air pollution measurements and basically forced the Chinese to admit they were lying about air pollution. The hardest critic of the Chinese government on pollution is the Chinese people, as it should be. And the hardest critic of US pollution issues should be those of us who live here.
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gb
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PostWed Jan 11, 2017 5:38 pm 
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boot up wrote:
China is an ecological disaster, yet the USA is always trotted out as the villain for pollution.

"always trotted out" sounds too much like "people are saying"; something made up to try to support and unsupportable position that is ideologically based.
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