Forum Index > Full Moon Saloon > Ever had the screaming barfies ? edit...from cold hands
Previous :: Next Topic  
Author Message
HitTheTrail
Member
Member


Joined: 30 Oct 2007
Posts: 4880 | TRs
Location: Rescuing Shackleton
HitTheTrail
  Top

Member
PostTue Feb 28, 2017 6:47 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Both my daughter and I suffer from Raynaud’s syndrome. That’s where your hands can get cold and numb even under normal conditions. While skiing this past weekend, we were comparing notes about recent situations and she referred to it as getting “the screaming barfies”. It turns out that is a term commonly used by ice climbers but it can apply to climbers in general or any outdoor activity. Google it, or even watch some YouTube vids of ice climbers who are dealing with the condition. It can be very informative.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Schenk
Off Leash Man



Joined: 16 Apr 2012
Posts: 2107 | TRs
Location: Traveling, with the bear, to the other side of the Mountain
Schenk
  Top

Off Leash Man
PostTue Feb 28, 2017 7:55 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Yeah, heard that term a long time ago from an ice climber in Idaho. I was confused though as I had previously associated the "barfies" with excessive alcohol consumption.
Even folks without Raynaud's can experience the barfies, and most winter sports enthusiasts have.
Any one can PM me their email address (I'll send it to you as a word.doc) if they want an outline of the US Army Reserve's method to "retrain" your bodies vasoconstriction response to cold. It was developed to combat (hahaha) Raynaud's syndrome.  I will also include an outline of "Murray's Method" to do the same thing. This method was in the Jan/Feb 2005 issue of the Wilderness Medicine Newsletter.
Both methods require a commitment of time but apparently they work for many people.

--------------
Nature exists with a stark indifference to humans' situation.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Frango
Member
Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2012
Posts: 141 | TRs

Frango
  Top

Member
PostTue Feb 28, 2017 7:01 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Wow - hot aches huh? I'm a nurse. That is sooooooo not where my brain went when I saw the term 'screaming barfies' !!  souse.gif  hurl.gif
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
fourteen410
Member
Member


Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 1684 | TRs

fourteen410
  Top

Member
PostTue Feb 28, 2017 11:30 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Oh yes, had them in my toes several years ago - and I still cringe thinking about it. It's a very apt name.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Schenk
Off Leash Man



Joined: 16 Apr 2012
Posts: 2107 | TRs
Location: Traveling, with the bear, to the other side of the Mountain
Schenk
  Top

Off Leash Man
PostWed Mar 01, 2017 9:04 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
So I have had some requests for this information and I thought I would paste it in here and see what happens. Moderators, if this is too much text feel free to delete and I will continue to email the info to anyone who asks for it. Hopefully folks can just copy and paste into their own document.
If you try this out please post your experience/results here. Thanks!

Army Reserve Institute Training
Points:
• Some people train more quickly than others
• For most people, the training lasts for a number of years, although some people must retrain yearly
• Training may not work for people with auto immune problems
• Training should be done only after checking with a physician
Procedure:
1. Dress in normal indoor clothing (i.e. long sleeved shirt and pants) Over dressing will defeat the purpose of the treatments. However, do avoid prolonged exposure to severe cold.
2. Perform the treatment every other day (3 times per week) for 6 weeks
3. Go to the area you will be doing the treatments and measure the ambient air temperature with a thermometer
4. Fill up your container with hot tap water (104°-108° F)
5. Pre-warm your hands (and/or feet) in warm water, dry and cover your hands for travel to the conditioning area
6. Go to an unheated porch, garage, or balcony (or walk in cooler) and immerse both hands up to the wrists in the same container of hot water for 10 minutes.
7. Cover hands and return indoors for 5 minutes. Re-adjust water temperature to 104°-108° F.
8. Pre-warm hands again for 2 minutes. Dry and cover hands for travel to conditioning area.
9. Go to conditioning area (porch, garage, etc.) for a second time and immerse both hands up to the wrists for 10 minutes in the hot water.
10. Cover hands and return indoors for 5 minutes. Readjust water back up to 104°-108° F)
11. Pre-warm hands for 2 minutes, dry hands and cover for travel to conditioning area.
12. Go to conditioning area for the third time and immerse both hands up to the wrists for 10 minutes in the hot water.
13. Cover hands and return indoors.
14. Dry hands and warm up indoors.
• Use procedure for hands and feet if both are affected.
• Suggestion: instead of hauling ice chests of hot water back and forth keep containers of hot water indoors and in conditioning area.
• For hands make a “muff” out of a heating pad for travel back and forth
• For feet put styrofoam insulation in a plastic tub, insert hot water bottle and tuck a pillow around the feet

Another Article:
Rehabbing Raynaud’s or Murray’s Method:

Equipment: 2 – 4 Styrofoam coolers, 2 for hands + 2 for feet.
Warm water.
Warm inside & cool, <32°F (0°C) outside.
Fill the Styrofoam coolers with warm water, 105°F – 110°F, one set inside and one set outside.
Start inside, dressed lightly so that you are comfortable, and sit with your hands or feet in the warm water for about 5 mintues; then, get up and go outside.  Stay lightly dressed, and put your hands or feet in the warm water outside, for 5 – 10 minutes.
For this to work your body has to be able to cool off while your hands and feet stay warm.  This is the re-education process.
You have to repeat this process about 50 times.  It seems to be most effective when you do this about 5 times a day, every other day.


For more detailed information on Raynaud’s Disease see the Jan/Feb 2005 issue of the Wilderness Medicine Newsletter, Non-Freezing Cold Injuries.

--------------
Nature exists with a stark indifference to humans' situation.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
HitTheTrail
Member
Member


Joined: 30 Oct 2007
Posts: 4880 | TRs
Location: Rescuing Shackleton
HitTheTrail
  Top

Member
PostWed Mar 01, 2017 10:13 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Whoa! I was getting ready to PM you for that info so I am glad you posted it for all. Thanks. But it sounds a bit too involved for me to implement.

I get the screaming pain part of the screaming barfies on almost every hiking trip but not necessarily the barfies. Sometimes just feel a bit nauseated. My solution to all of this is to always keep my core body temp up around normal. That means NEVER sit around with wet base layers even if I stop for a short time. It also means carrying a winter down puffy and wearing it around camp even in mid summer. That allows me to manage the condition most of the time with just a few bouts of short intense pain as my hands come back to life.

One big inspiration from all of this came from seeing that YouTube video of the young female climber crying shaking her hands and repeating,"This hurts but I know this will go away in just a few minutes".
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Schenk
Off Leash Man



Joined: 16 Apr 2012
Posts: 2107 | TRs
Location: Traveling, with the bear, to the other side of the Mountain
Schenk
  Top

Off Leash Man
PostWed Mar 01, 2017 10:41 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Once you are set up with the coolers and hot water it really isn't as bad as it looks.
It is a commitment of time (about an hour a day for a few days, maybe longer for some) but it is worth it for some folks.

I originally found the Army Reserve info when I started ice climbing. I found the article in Wilderness Medicine a couple decades later.
Fortunately for me the solution was as simple as NOT drinking any coffee on climbing days. Apparently the circulation in my extremities really clamps down with caffeine. When I skip the coffee I avoid the whole problem.

--------------
Nature exists with a stark indifference to humans' situation.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!



Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 8658 | TRs
Location: Don't move here
treeswarper
  Top

Alleged Sockpuppet!
PostWed Mar 01, 2017 11:28 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
So, is this akin to what we called thawing out feet?  Before good insulated boots were common, we kids would go out and play or ski in our leather boots until we could not feel our feet.  Then indoors we went and propped feet up near heat and the pain began.  Then, after our feet were warm and not hurting, we went outside and played and repeated...

--------------
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Hiker Mama
Member
Member


Joined: 25 Jun 2006
Posts: 3337 | TRs
Location: Lynnwood
Hiker Mama
  Top

Member
PostFri Mar 03, 2017 11:33 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Huh. That's really interesting. Thanks for posting that retraining method. I'll show it to my son, who has Reynaud's.  I doubt he would commit to trying it, but at least he can be educated about it.

--------------
My hiking w/ kids site: www.thehikermama.com
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Harald
Member
Member


Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 4 | TRs
Location: Sweden
Harald
  Top

Member
PostSat Mar 18, 2017 1:31 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
This post is about Raynaud's syndrome and how to retrain with "Murray's Method". It is NOT about "screaming barfies" which I consider a separate phenomenon. I'll provide several references on the retraining.

Since not everybody is familiar with the phenomenon of Raynaud, I will first show you a video of my hands:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q257igpgyi131qt/VitaFingrarSurf2016-08-09.m4v?dl=0
For a simple jpg image taken from the video: https://www.dropbox.com/s/spa2a1t7fmf5755/Vita%20fingrar%20efter%20surf%202016-08-09.jpg?dl=0
(If you think I should have been wearing a helmet to increase warmth, I can assure you I did wear a helmet but just took it off before being filmed.)

The return of blood to the fingers will in most cases not be associated with extreme crying pain, and therefore I regard the Raynaud and extreme pain as separate phenomena. The white fingers though are numb and very unpleasant, and also a bit painful albeit not extreme pain. The return of blood can take extremely long time, and one can be sweaty on the body while still have completely numb fingers that hurt and are weak. The best method to get blood out while not having a heater is to swing arms hard for a long time (many minutes) to "pump" or press the blood out towards the fingers.

Schenk provided the "Army Reserve Institute Training", but the information you provided is slightly different from the ones I have seen, and it appears to differ somewhat from the original training method devised by Murray Hamlet. Therefore, I will provide various links, both to the original method by Murray but also to some other forums that have dealt with the issue.

But the actual reason that I post here is that I am curious to get in touch with people who might have dived into this a bit more and perhaps have found refinements to Murray's method.

I belong to those who can get white fingers only by holding the steering wheel in my car when it is only slightly chilly, even when I wear thick mittens. I am severely hampered by this, such as in windsurfing, climbing etcetera, and it gets worse with age (I am 60+ now).

The retraining method is developed by Murray P. Hamlet, D.V.M., Chief, Research Support Division, U.S. Army Research Institute, Natick, Massachusetts, 1987 or earlier, and the original ideas are from an army doctor in Alaska about a decade earlier. Dr Hamlet at Army Laboratory refined the method (you can read about this in http://www.nytimes.com/1988/01/19/science/simple-method-found-to-warm-cold-hands.html).

Murray's method is best described in: http://www.publichealth.va.gov/docs/vhi/coldinjury.pdf chapter 12 page 83 "Instructions for Home Treatment of Raynaud’s Disease".

Be sure to also read a good post at: http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1136726/Re_Raynauds_Syndrome#Post1136726

You may also want to complement with: https://wildernessmedicinenewsletter.wordpress.com/2006/12/08/cold-related-injuries-6-raynauds-disease/

I am currently doing the method, so I can't really report on success/failure. I have so far done 24 cycles out of the stipulated 50 cycles. So far, I have not experienced any improvement in finger temperatures.

The bad thing with the training is that it is unpleasant and takes many hours; the good thing is that it is free and has no side effects!

Currently in Sweden, it is above freezing, so the chill effect is not so strong, and therefore I sit outside for 15 minutes rather than the stipulated 10 minutes, and I keep my upper body bare while sitting outside. For the warm-up time, 20 minutes as stipulated in the pdf, is a bit too short for me — full warm-up takes at least an hour, but I try to do the cycle once per hour. I only get to do 4 cycles before it is lunchtime, and I get unpleasantly colder by each cycle.

Some instructions say to immerse the entire hands up to wrists, but I am thinking if it perhaps would be more efficient to only immerse the fingers while cooling the hands? What do you think? Also I think the instruction to immerse in warm water indoors after the cold period is strange – I mean, why should I do that? To warm-up I'd rather put on a super-thick down jacket (I have a gigantic one from Mountain Equipment). I can understand the preheating of the hands, but post-heating seems pretty strange and meaningless to me? Why?

I also skip putting on mitten- or boot protection when going from inside-outside because it is only two meters apart and I believe my switch is sufficiently fast not to cause a significant chill of the hands/feet. The outside is my balcony which has wooden floor, and there is no snow.

What is your experience?

Enough for now,

/Harald
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
HitTheTrail
Member
Member


Joined: 30 Oct 2007
Posts: 4880 | TRs
Location: Rescuing Shackleton
HitTheTrail
  Top

Member
PostSat Mar 18, 2017 6:28 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Harald,
Welcome to the forum. Great first post with lots of added information on the issue. up.gif

One thing that does not seem to have been mentioned about the training is how long it lasts. Is it a one-time thing that lasts forever? Your body never forgets? Or do you need to do periodic refresher training to keep your body from reverting back to taking signals from its DNA that have been programmed by millions of years of evolution?
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Harald
Member
Member


Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 4 | TRs
Location: Sweden
Harald
  Top

Member
PostSat Mar 18, 2017 6:47 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
HitTheTrail wrote:
One thing that does not seem to have been mentioned about the training is how long it lasts. Is it a one-time thing that lasts forever? Your body never forgets? Or do you need to do periodic refresher training to keep your body from reverting back to taking signals its DNA that have been programmed by millions of years of evolution?

I quote the following from the pdf reference I gave:

Quote:
Some people respond more quickly and completely than others. Some require training yearly, but most have relief of symptoms for a number of years.

My own suspicion is that it may depend on age. If it really works, I would be willing to do it yearly. Maybe one can get away with a shortened "refresh" program?

Since it was a long time ago the method was developed (using young soldiers) I have assumed that at least someone has tried out variants and thereby refined the method. I have searched the internet many many hours in vain trying to find newer refined methods.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Guy Ho
Member
Member





Guy Ho
  Top

Member
PostThu Oct 05, 2017 11:35 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Ok, so after Googling Murray's method, I stumble upon this forum. It seems like there are people trying this out.

Are there anyone out there who can report results, or how they feel about this method? Any information can be helpful, even if it's just as simple as "don't do it" or "it's the best thing for Raynaud'd".

I am located in Michigan in the United States, and winter is coming! so I want to see if this can help or not.

The bad thing is Michigan don't experience a very long winter (days below 0 deg C) for me to be able to do this every other day, for 50 days. I can probably get around 30 days of temperature outside being below 0 degree C.

If I cannot get to the recommend 50 times, is it even worth doing?

Can anyone comment on the procedure overall?

If this is something worth doing, it should be more advertised and more people should know about it!
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Schenk
Off Leash Man



Joined: 16 Apr 2012
Posts: 2107 | TRs
Location: Traveling, with the bear, to the other side of the Mountain
Schenk
  Top

Off Leash Man
PostThu Oct 05, 2017 12:49 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
I would find someone with a walk in freezer to complete the treatment.
A meat packing plant, restaurant, cold storage rental, etc...
0 degrees C is 32 F...is Michigan that tropical that you only get 30 days below 32F? hahahaha

I have not done the treatment myself, so no help there, sorry.
Apparently the US Army feels that it works...

--------------
Nature exists with a stark indifference to humans' situation.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Harald
Member
Member


Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 4 | TRs
Location: Sweden
Harald
  Top

Member
PostFri Oct 06, 2017 11:35 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Guy Ho wrote:

Are there anyone out there who can report results

As you can see in my earlier post I was doing the procedure at the time I posted it.
Unfortunately, I cannot say that it solved my problem, and it is even difficult so safely know if it had any significant effect at all. Perhaps a little effect. Maybe younger persons respond better to this treatment. As I mentioned in my post above, the weather was such that it usually was above freezing, and that may have reduced its effect. I did a total of  12 days with 4-5 cycles a day (every other day), totaling 53 cycles. The temperature was mostly between –4°C and +6°C (mostly around +4°C), and naked upper body to compensate for the not-so-cold temperatures. When windy it was very cold also at +4°C, whereas calm weather and below freezing was not as cold.

Guy Ho wrote:

If I cannot get to the recommend 50 times, is it even worth doing?

I believe that less than 25 cycles is meaningless.

Guy Ho wrote:

If this is something worth doing, it should be more advertised and more people should know about it!

I totally agree, and I am astonished by the lack of feedback from people! Even negative feedback would valuable knowledge, but I hear nothing! Since the army did the method I believe it really was valuable, at least for young people (soldiers). And if so, it aught to be very valuable for many other since this problem is extremely common. I also suspect that the method could be improved/refined, but I do not know how.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
  Display:     All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Forum Index > Full Moon Saloon > Ever had the screaming barfies ? edit...from cold hands
  Happy Birthday Gabigabs, alpine964!
Jump to:   
Search this topic:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
   Use Disclaimer Powered by phpBB Privacy Policy