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Trailhead
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PostMon Mar 06, 2017 5:57 pm 
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Mt Adams does have a problem with snowmobiles riding high up on the glaciers such as the Klickitat, leaving deep ruts visible well into summer. Also riding above the 7000 foot wilderness boundary on the S Side climbing route.
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Malachai Constant
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PostMon Mar 06, 2017 6:04 pm 
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Some people are like Daisy and Tom in The Great Gatsby they just do not care who and what they damage. We used to condem selfishness but now we idolize it. The sled heads you speak of are one example, snowshoers who trash skin tracks are another. The person who shot a caged cat yet another. I could go on but you catch my drift.

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Just_Some_Hiker
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PostMon Mar 06, 2017 6:32 pm 
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Trailhead wrote:
Mt Adams does have a problem with snowmobiles riding high up on the glaciers such as the Klickitat, leaving deep ruts visible well into summer. Also riding above the 7000 foot wilderness boundary on the S Side climbing route.

They violate wilderness boundaries and trash ski trails just about everywhere they go. I've seen this behavior in four different states. They've even been known to drive to the summit of Baker. Last winter I spent a lot of time in the Three Sisters wilderness, and their tracks were everywhere. They'd drive right passed the no snowmobile signs and cruise into the wilderness area. Marked ski trails with blue diamonds would have sled tracks going down them from beginning to end. Hell, they'd even come onto our private property in the middle of the night when I was a kid growing up. Outliers my ass.
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christensent
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PostMon Mar 06, 2017 7:40 pm 
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I can't believe people are really using arguments for why a few bad snowmobilers make snowmobiling evil.

Hikers frequently violate "no walking" regions in popular areas to go get a good view trampling meadows. In the back country hikers are often spotted walking through meadows and marsh lands (which, by the way, does WAY more damage to the environment than responsibly snowmobiling off-road). You ever seen the piles of garbage hikers leave in the woods? You ever been to Lake Colchuck in the middle of the summer? People have their stereo's playing into the night and screaming and drinking! The interference to enjoying nature is intolerable, people shouldn't be hiking in there. There's just so few places I can go where the land is designated hiker-free. Hikers think they can go anywhere, even if there's no trail! Then hikers go onto their forum and complain about me even though they're walking down the middle of the road like they own the place!


For what it's worth, that's all a big joke... but sort of serious too. Most of the arguments here are literally as weak as using any of the above points to justify why hikers are terrible people who shouldn't be allowed in the woods. Actually hikers have it best. You can literally go anywhere. Everyone else is restricted to certain areas.

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AlpineRose
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PostMon Mar 06, 2017 8:13 pm 
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Quote:
arguments for why a few bad snowmobilers make snowmobiling evil

Now I'm not going to reread this entire thread, but I don't recall anyone calling anything evil.  Although if someone did, it depends on their definition of evil. 

What is abundantly clear is that one or a few inconsiderate (i.e., "bad") slednecks have an outsize adverse impact per capita on others' quiet enjoyment of winter.   This adverse effect occurs even with the considerate (i.e., "good") ones, just not as much.  It's the nature of the beast.  Snomos are smelly, noisy, and most importantly, can travel much farther than a non-motorized traveler.  Therefore, each one has an effect over a larger area.

It should be clear to all winter recreationists this is why there needs to be dedicated non-motorized areas.  The Methow Valley is a brilliant example of successful separation motorized and non-motorized winter playgrounds..
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Malachai Constant
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PostMon Mar 06, 2017 8:13 pm 
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False argument nobody is saying all snowmobilers are evil jus thay the ones they ran into are.

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"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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christensent
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PostMon Mar 06, 2017 8:51 pm 
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Don't think anybody has used the word evil. That was not intended to be a quote of anyone, just the general sentiment I interpret many of the messages posted to have.

Sure seems like lots of people here are making "they do X" accusations where they is the average snowmobiler (some have even specifically stated their accusations apply to a reasonable fraction of snowmobilers rather than the outlier). Most of these more serious accusations apply to the character and ethics of its operator. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting peoples statements.

Basically the sentiment of many people seems to be something like 'I wish snowmobiles weren't allowed anywhere I want to go, because X, Y and Z. Snowmobiles can go where I don't want to go' where all accusations apply to a tiny minority of snowmobile operators. I don't know how many hundreds of days I've been out in the snow under human power, and the only time I've EVER run into a snowmobile is either in a sno-park or when the operator is accessing their place of residence. I think it's a bit ridiculous to say more separation is needed or that it's a exaggeration to claim there are plenty of places to go without them, but I guess that's a bit of a different point I'm diverging to.

Although I have no experience snowmobiling, I've had a lot of experience with the off-road vehicle scene which I would consider to be the most respectful group of people I've ever met anywhere in my whole life, by quite a wide margin. Maybe the snowmobile group is different and they're on average not so great people, I don't know.

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DIYSteve
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PostMon Mar 06, 2017 9:16 pm 
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christensent wrote:
the general sentiment

Bah. You're the one guilty of generalizing. I have no problem with snowmobilers who follow the rules and are considerate, but the fact is that the some do break the law and/or are assholes. Every year I see tracks in wilderness areas. Some of them brag about it and post pics, e.g., gunning across Ingalls Lake.
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christensent
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PostMon Mar 06, 2017 9:30 pm 
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DIYSteve wrote:
christensent wrote:
the general sentiment

Bah. You're the one guilty of generalizing.

I don't know how else to interpret things like "Snowmobiles are a menace", "They have zero respect", "They violate wilderness boundaries and trash ski trails just about everywhere they go. ", or "outliers my ass".

But clearly I'm not understanding what people are saying, so I'll drop off replying here.

I did mean the general sentiment with regard to people complaining with generalized accusations. Obviously there are also a lot of people in this thread saying good things about the people.

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CC
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cascade curmudgeon
PostMon Mar 06, 2017 10:24 pm 
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John Morrow wrote:
n16ht5 wrote:
Get a sled or a snowbike and get yourself out there away from everything. Ride to the wilderness boundary and start skinning.. that is how I do it.  moon.gif I would bet money I will never see another person out here all winter... haters  biggrin.gif


Come on, that language isn't necessary.  It is not too much to ask for a few close in places to be dedicated to quietude, especially when the north side of Rainy Pass is easily accessible to the snowmobile via Lake Wenatchee snowpark.
There's some bad eggs with attitude snowmobiling from Smithbrook.  To your wilderness point, I've worked real hard to summit Jove in order to ski the  Jove North Bowl inside the Henry M Jackson Wilderness only to observe illegal high marking in process all across that slope, trashing it.  They exit back to Smithbrook.

I can't afford a $30,000 truck, $10,000 trailer, and pair of $15,000 snowmobiles.  (these are guesses, but way more than my $900 tele outfit)

On Smithbrook the wilderness boundary is just past the second hairpin (where the road starts the traverse of Union Pk up to Rainy Pass).  There are almost always sled tracks from there up the Smithbrook drainage into the wilderness, sometimes all the way to Valhalla.

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hikersarenumber1
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PostMon Mar 06, 2017 11:24 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:
Sounds the same as what little kids on short skis do. smile.gif

How far can a little kid on short skis travel in a day?  Compared to a snowmobile? Seriously?

That's the thing.  One person. How much snow can they track?  How loud can they be?  How much do they stink and how long does it linger.

I can fart with the best of them, but one person and a sled probably has the potential to cause 1000x the impact of one person on skis or snowshoes.

They need to be contained.  Period.  End of  subject.  And could we get some drones or something to enforce the Wilderness boundaries?

Anyone remember a few years ago when they illegally tore up Mission Ridge Ski area just after they closed and ruined it for post season skinning?

One bad sledder, all bad sledders.  They need to police themselves, create a culture of compliance, courtesy... their culture is braaap braaap let's f some sh## up!
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Just_Some_Hiker
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PostTue Mar 07, 2017 2:07 am 
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christensent wrote:
I can't believe people are really using arguments for why a few bad snowmobilers make snowmobiling evil.

Hikers frequently violate "no walking" regions in popular areas to go get a good view trampling meadows. In the back country hikers are often spotted walking through meadows and marsh lands (which, by the way, does WAY more damage to the environment than responsibly snowmobiling off-road). You ever seen the piles of garbage hikers leave in the woods? You ever been to Lake Colchuck in the middle of the summer? People have their stereo's playing into the night and screaming and drinking! The interference to enjoying nature is intolerable, people shouldn't be hiking in there. There's just so few places I can go where the land is designated hiker-free. Hikers think they can go anywhere, even if there's no trail!

There's no doubt that hikers can be jerks, too. But I don't have to worry about a careless hiker crashing into my girlfriend or me and killing us because they were going down a crowded trail too fast.

I grew up in a small town where snowmobiles were a big part of the local culture, and I live in a similar environment today. Snomobiling culture is way different than hiking culture. Generally slednecks aren't out there to enjoy nature and experience solitude. They're out there to go fast and tear sh-t up. I listen to my co-workers all week long talk about how they're going to get wasted and go do stupid stuff on their sleds. I don't care to share a trail with these people.
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Jeff
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PostTue Mar 07, 2017 5:39 am 
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I think the confusion comes from viewing smithbrook road as a trail. It's not a trail, it's a road.
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treeswarper
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PostTue Mar 07, 2017 6:16 am 
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Schenk wrote:
And about those great "wildlife corridors" sleds create...Baloney. 100% baloney. Just because we see some game tracks on a packed trail, that does not automatically mean that packed snowmobile trails are a benefit to wildlife

Schenk, I didn't say it was a benefit to wildlife.  I meant it affected wildlife.  Here's just one paper on it, it isn't "baloney".  Coyotes do benefit, though.Coyotes and snowmobile tracks

Why do I remember this?  I lived and worked in Okanogan County and environmental groups were trying successfully to shut down building new roads in snowshoe hare habitat.  Snowmobile tracks and wildlife use was brought up.   Apparently coyotes take advantage of the packed down tracks and their winter hunting area expands.  They can then become competitors with Canadian Lynx by killing the hares, which the Lynx like to eat.  If you read up on it, Lynx are trying to become endangered.  The specific area is up in the Toats Coulee/Loomis country.

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treeswarper
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PostTue Mar 07, 2017 6:26 am 
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Just_Some_Hiker wrote:
But I don't have to worry about a careless hiker crashing into my girlfriend or me and killing us because they were going down a crowded trail too fast.

Nah, you just have to worry about them stabbing your dog with their sharpened sticks.    embarassedlaugh.gif

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