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hikersarenumber1
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PostTue Mar 07, 2017 7:53 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
Schenk wrote:
And about those great "wildlife corridors" sleds create...Baloney. 100% baloney. Just because we see some game tracks on a packed trail, that does not automatically mean that packed snowmobile trails are a benefit to wildlife

Schenk, I didn't say it was a benefit to wildlife.  I meant it affected wildlife.  Here's just one paper on it, it isn't "baloney".  Coyotes do benefit, though.Coyotes and snowmobile tracks

Why do I remember this?  I lived and worked in Okanogan County and environmental groups were trying successfully to shut down building new roads in snowshoe hare habitat.  Snowmobile tracks and wildlife use was brought up.   Apparently coyotes take advantage of the packed down tracks and their winter hunting area expands.  They can then become competitors with Canadian Lynx by killing the hares, which the Lynx like to eat.  If you read up on it, Lynx are trying to become endangered.  The specific area is up in the Toats Coulee/Loomis country.

Are you trying to say snowmobiles are "good" for wild life or "bad"?

This post, to me, says bad.  There are plenty of coyotes and assisting their hunting is a bad thing...  actually, unless we are mitigating something we already f'ed up, assisting wildlife is, as a general rule, "bad".
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Just_Some_Hiker
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PostTue Mar 07, 2017 8:12 am 
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Jeff wrote:
I think the confusion comes from viewing smithbrook road as a trail. It's not a trail, it's a road.

It's viewed as a trail because in the winter that's  essentially what it is. The USFS may not have rubber stamped it yet, but it's a defacto sno-park. And 99% of the people who recreate there are skiers and snowshoers.
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hikersarenumber1
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PostTue Mar 07, 2017 8:18 am 
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I would have an easier time with "its a road, not a trail" if the snomos were required to stay on roads in most areas.   They aren't.   The road just makes it easier for them to tear sh## up off the road...

Also, there are TONS of snowmobiles, and they cost a lot of money.  They must have a lot of money and it seems like an extra 5 or 10 dollars to their licence fees could support some snomo enforcement officers...
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John Morrow
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PostTue Mar 07, 2017 9:23 am 
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hikersarenumber1 wrote:
I would have an easier time with "its a road, not a trail" if the snomos were required to stay on roads in most areas.   They aren't.   The road just makes it easier for them to tear sh## up off the road...

Also, there are TONS of snowmobiles, and they cost a lot of money.  They must have a lot of money and it seems like an extra 5 or 10 dollars to their licence fees could support some snomo enforcement officers...

Good question.  The program does, in fact, support enforcement but only at official snowparks and trails emanating from snowparks.  Since that is where most of the revenue is generated

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“Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?”-Mary Oliver

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Backpacker Joe
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PostTue Mar 07, 2017 10:07 am 
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Malachai Constant wrote:
Some people are like Daisy and Tom in The Great Gatsby they just do not care who and what they damage. We used to condem selfishness but now we idolize it. The sled heads you speak of are one example, snowshoers who trash skin tracks are another. The person who shot a caged cat yet another. I could go on but you catch my drift.

Mal, what exactly are they damaging?  They're riding on snow?  Whatever they do will be gone in the spring!!!

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Backpacker Joe
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PostTue Mar 07, 2017 10:09 am 
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Just_Some_Hiker wrote:
Jeff wrote:
I think the confusion comes from viewing smithbrook road as a trail. It's not a trail, it's a road.

It's viewed as a trail because in the winter that's  essentially what it is. The USFS may not have rubber stamped it yet, but it's a defacto sno-park. And 99% of the people who recreate there are skiers and snowshoers.

Im sorry, but a seasonal condition does NOT change the fact that its a road!  Drop off a snow cat and it will drive up the ROAD just fine!

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hikersarenumber1
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PostTue Mar 07, 2017 10:17 am 
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Backpacker Joe wrote:
Malachai Constant wrote:
Some people are like Daisy and Tom in The Great Gatsby they just do not care who and what they damage. We used to condem selfishness but now we idolize it. The sled heads you speak of are one example, snowshoers who trash skin tracks are another. The person who shot a caged cat yet another. I could go on but you catch my drift.

Mal, what exactly are they damaging?  They're riding on snow?  Whatever they do will be gone in the spring!!!

When they track out an area it makes that area unsuitable and potentially dangerous for skiing and less pristine and beautiful.  Their noise ruins other people's peaceful experience.   Their exhaust is harmful to breathe and for the environment.

Mixed use does not work with big, loud, fast and smelly machines when there are a lot of them.
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RandyHiker
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PostTue Mar 07, 2017 10:25 am 
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Backpacker Joe wrote:
Drop off a snow cat and it will drive up the ROAD just fine!

This is true in the physical reality sense -- however to legally operating a snow cat on a snow covered USFS road requires a special use permit from the USFS.

Seems the snow cat usage interfere with snowmobile usage -- the tracks left by a snow cat make the snow surface bumpy and ruin the fun for snowmobiles -- then there the issue of a snow cat consuming the entire width of the road and making it impossible for snowmobiles to pass the snow cat (in either direction)
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n16ht5
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PostTue Mar 07, 2017 10:31 am 
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John Morrow wrote:
n16ht5 wrote:
Get a sled or a snowbike and get yourself out there away from everything. Ride to the wilderness boundary and start skinning.. that is how I do it.  moon.gif I would bet money I will never see another person out here all winter... haters  biggrin.gif


Come on, that language isn't necessary.  It is not too much to ask for a few close in places to be dedicated to quietude, especially when the north side of Rainy Pass is easily accessible to the snowmobile via Lake Wenatchee snowpark.
There's some bad eggs with attitude snowmobiling from Smithbrook.  To your wilderness point, I've worked real hard to summit Jove in order to ski the  Jove North Bowl inside the Henry M Jackson Wilderness only to observe illegal high marking in process all across that slope, trashing it.  They exit back to Smithbrook.

I can't afford a $30,000 truck, $10,000 trailer, and pair of $15,000 snowmobiles.  (these are guesses, but way more than my $900 tele outfit)



John, I was trying to lighten up this anger-filled thread with some humor. I did not mean to come across as offensive. Personally, I quit riding Smithbrook after only a few trips because of all the pedestrian traffic. I have plenty of other places to go where I won't have to worry about annoying the people around me. My "tow rig" is an old Honda civic that I welded a hitch onto, and the trailer I got for free from my cousin.

With snowmobiling there are bad apples along with every other sport, and if you are in wilderness and see a sled, tell them. Chances are they don't even know. There is a lot more wilderness than open riding area. I bet some of them ride wilderness just to spite all the angry hikers they have had hand gestures or obscenities hurled at them while on the trail.. I have been yelled at by XC skiers while riding on FS roads on my way to go touring. I keep my GPS running while I ride to mind my P's and Q's. I could complain about "you people" but I don't generalize, as I hike more than I ride... IE: hikers going through meadows, cutting switchbacks, leaving trash, etc.

If any of you are looking for solitude with an easy approach feel free to PM me, I spend a lot of time exploring north of I90 and know of some good areas you can drive to where you won't see a soul all day. Just like bosses at work and people driving on the freeway, there are always going to be "those ones" out there that try to anger as many people as they can. Don't be the narcissist, don't let your pride ruin your experience. Rise above the anger and figure out how to enjoy all the amazing places we have here in WA.  smile.gif

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Just_Some_Hiker
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PostTue Mar 07, 2017 10:36 am 
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Backpacker Joe wrote:
Just_Some_Hiker wrote:
Jeff wrote:
I think the confusion comes from viewing smithbrook road as a trail. It's not a trail, it's a road.

It's viewed as a trail because in the winter that's  essentially what it is. The USFS may not have rubber stamped it yet, but it's a defacto sno-park. And 99% of the people who recreate there are skiers and snowshoers.

Im sorry, but a seasonal condition does NOT change the fact that its a road!

Yes it does. The actual road is buried under six feet of snow.

Backpacker Joe wrote:
Drop off a snow cat and it will drive up the ROAD just fine!

What's your point? Snowcats can also drive up the sides of mountains where no roads exist.
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hikersarenumber1
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PostTue Mar 07, 2017 10:47 am 
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n16ht5 wrote:
if you are in wilderness and see a sled, tell them. Chances are they don't even know. There is a lot more wilderness than open riding area. I bet some of them ride wilderness just to spite all the angry hikers they have had hand gestures or obscenities hurled at them while on the trail..

Really?  Skiers/snowshoers should police people breaking the law by riding motorized machines in wilderness areas that didn't take responsibility for themselves and look at a map...ohhh but then, they are riding in wilderness just to spite other, less impactful users?

How could a skier or snowshoer yell or gesture loud enough to do much harm to a person riding a loud machine that can go as fast as cars?  Compared to the noise and smell and tracked out snow?  Really?
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Schenk
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PostTue Mar 07, 2017 10:50 am 
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Backpacker Joe wrote:
Mal, what exactly are they damaging?  They're riding on snow?  Whatever they do will be gone in the spring!!!

That statement is overly simplified.
Here is the short list one more time:

1) Sleds break off the tops of small trees any place they go. Actually, because of this trait, timber companies forbid sledding off their established roads, or forbid it altogether. The damage they do to all the young trees in replanted  areas is expensive for them.
2) Sledders can also knock down and trash road and campground signs. Seen it plenty.
3) They have also caved in roofs of small buildings  by using them as "jumps".
4) Sledders chase and harass wildlife that uses the packed trails as a thoroughfare in the winter. Moose get the worst of this. Moose usually get chased down the trail a couple miles while sledders hound it and don't give it time to move off. Animals may use the packed trails, but they don't need them.


It is a simple fact that sleds do not "ride on top of the snow. Maybe a sled riding only on packed or groomed trails rides "on top of the snow".
But once a mountain sled goes off a packed trail (especially when climbing) then 2'+ deep ruts are the norm; hardly on top of the snow.

Now before all you motorized tough guys get all "go buy a sled or go home" on me...I own a sled and I have never felt compelled to ruin anyone's day just because it was legal to do so.

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Stefan
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PostTue Mar 07, 2017 11:44 am 
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John Morrow wrote:
I can't afford a $30,000 truck, $10,000 trailer, and pair of $15,000 snowmobiles.

That's a lot of taxes.  I wonder where it goes?  I am not paying those kind of taxes...and the gas taxes too!  Not to mention the licensing fees...somebody's making some money...and I guess I am not contributing....

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Stefan
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PostTue Mar 07, 2017 1:09 pm 
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Slednecks don't need no roads!
Where's there's water...there's a sledneck!

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zephyr
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PostTue Mar 07, 2017 2:09 pm 
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Stefan wrote:
Slednecks don't need no roads!
Where's there's water...there's a sledneck!

Man, that's depressing.      ~z
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