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Kat
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Turtle Hiker
PostThu Mar 09, 2017 4:13 am 
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n16ht5 wrote:
I could complain about "you people" but I don't generalize, as I hike more than I ride... IE: hikers going through meadows, cutting switchbacks, leaving trash, etc.

up.gif

The Hordons pooping in their campsites, blaring music etc hiking in the woods annoy me WAY more than "modern" snowmobiles which indeed are way less noisy than the old $300 Polaris triple I also own.

BTW, why anybody would go to Smithbrook thinking they're going to get a quiet experience is beyond me.... just sayin'.

Oh, and I enjoy taking advantage of snowmobile tracks it makes things a heck of a lot easier in deep snow - snowshoeing or skinning.

I'm actually a big proponent of multi-use, it helps keep our sno-parks and trails open and maintained if multiple users band together.  We're harder to ignore that way smile.gif

From a hiker,skier,snowshoer,horseman,goat packer and a sledneck!
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timberghost
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PostThu Mar 09, 2017 5:27 am 
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Agree with Kat
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NacMacFeegle
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PostThu Mar 09, 2017 12:09 pm 
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Kat wrote:
I enjoy taking advantage of snowmobile tracks it makes things a heck of a lot easier in deep snow - snowshoeing or skinning.

huh.gif I can't stand skiing/snowshoeing in them, and I find them aesthetically hideous.

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thunderhead
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PostThu Mar 09, 2017 3:13 pm 
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blaring music etc

Yup.  It would take an exceptionally annoying snowmachiner to even approach that level of annoying.
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AlpineRose
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PostThu Mar 09, 2017 3:50 pm 
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.  aack, replied on wrong thread.
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Just_Some_Hiker
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PostThu Mar 09, 2017 5:05 pm 
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Kat wrote:
Oh, and I enjoy taking advantage of snowmobile tracks it makes things a heck of a lot easier in deep snow - snowshoeing or skinning.

A proper skin track is preferable to a bumpy, moguled-out snomo track. And since skiers are invariably the first ones up Smithbrook road on any given weekend morning, there's usually a good skin track in place. That is until the slednecks start showing up and ride right over it. Every time.
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rossb
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PostFri Mar 10, 2017 6:08 pm 
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Quote:
It's a road

Yes, and there are roads that are reserved for snowshoe and ski travel, even though they aren't groomed. Deer Creek, off of the Mountain Loop Highway, for example.

Quote:
What's the problem?

One of these days I'm going to bring a giant boom box out hiking. Something similar to Radio Raheem's model, from Do the Right Thing. Except instead of being powered by 20 D batteries, it will be powered by a two stroke engine. And instead of playing Fight the Power, I'll play a mix of Tiny Tim and Japanese Opera. Maybe then folks will get an idea of what the problem is.

Yes, it is a road, and for a lot of people -- especially those that want to go someplace relatively safe and close -- that is their main option for travel. Experiencing the outdoors around very loud, very smoky machines can ruin a trip. I feel less strongly about the tracks that are left, but that is in part because I'm an experienced skier. I wouldn't take a beginning skier to a place where I think it has been chopped up, even if I thought the choppers were no longer there. But anytime a skier lays great tracks and a sledder goes over it, it is tough on the skier, so I can definitely sympathize.

The problem in general is that there just aren't that many places for skiers or snowshoers to avoid the machines. Of course there are only so many places for sledders to go as well. Managing the two uses is a big challenge. There will always be places that sledders want access to, and places where snowshoers or skiers will want them restricted.

I would take a page out of the book used to manage bike and hiking access to the trail up the Middle Fork. But instead of alternating by day, alternate by year. So that would mean that snowmobiles would have access to Smithbrook on even years, but not on odd years. There are a number of places where I wish there was this restriction, including the Park Butte road, Hex Mountain and Mountain Loop Highway. If possible, I would giving something up in return. Only a few places come to mind, but Deer Creek, Jolly Mountain, and the West Fork of the Foss River all sound like good candidates. These are all reasonably long (Jolly and the Foss are especially long) which mean that they would be popular with sledders. Ideally you group these in regions, so that in every case, you could pick something else in the area. So, for example, next year the Mountain Loop Highway might be closed to snowmobiles, but Deer Creek would be open to them. The following year it reverses.
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CC
cascade curmudgeon



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PostSun Mar 12, 2017 8:52 pm 
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christensent wrote:
6 feet of snow, who cares. If a road is open, I can almost guarantee a wheeled vehicle has been to the end of the road this winter.

Some serious puffing here.  There is no street-legal rig that can go in 6' of unconsolidated snow.  But you have identified the main culprits for winter road trashing in early season or at low elevations.  The ruts mess it up for everybody, including snowmobiles.  Every year a few 4x4ers try driving our cat road in midwinter.  Most only make it a few yards before getting high centered, but a few make it about a quarter mile down the hill till they get stuck.  Then, after having trashed the road, they go around looking for a cat owner to pull them out.

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No matter how cynical you become, it's not enough to keep up.  Jane Wagner/Lily Tomlin
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CC
cascade curmudgeon



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cascade curmudgeon
PostSun Mar 12, 2017 9:06 pm 
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RandyHiker wrote:
however to legally operating a snow cat on a snow covered USFS road requires a special use permit from the USFS. 

Where did you get this info, is it official or anecdotal?  It definitely doesn't apply to cats more than 25 years old which can be licensed as antique snowmobiles, and to which the same regulations apply.  And how do cats make the road bumpy?

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No matter how cynical you become, it's not enough to keep up.  Jane Wagner/Lily Tomlin
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christensent
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PostMon Mar 13, 2017 6:31 am 
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CC wrote:
Some serious puffing here.  There is no street-legal rig that can go in 6' of unconsolidated snow.

Fortunately, the snowpack usually isn't 6' of unconsolidated snow. I mean, do you think my picture was photoshopped? Avalanche probe sometimes goes all the way in when I'm driving in the winter season (about 6 feet).

However, in just the right conditions (like this spectacularly fun day December 2015), I actually drove at about 10MPH through 6+ feet of unconsolidated snow. There was no road broken in in front of me. My friend on snowshoes sunk waist to chest high. Had to get out every quarter mile to shovel off the hood so I could see again for a few minutes.


Stock vehicle, no. Modified street legal vehicle, yes.

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Learning mountaineering: 10% technical knowledge, 90% learning how to eat
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Jimbo
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PostMon Mar 13, 2017 6:40 am 
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bawl.gif  bawl.gif  bawl.gif

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ale_capone
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PostMon Mar 13, 2017 6:52 am 
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I love the antique cat show on the way through the village. Always have a hard time choosing my favorite.

He said wheeled, not street legal. wink.gif

Seen a truggy make it over jack pass mid Winter when the snow was 8' deep, much low elevation snow, and over 200 downed trees. They drove over trees we couldn't step over...Heard later it took them over two days of sawing, winching, and digging to make it.. impressive. All to make it to his dad's house in skyko.

But snowmobiles on x road?  Big deal. I don't care for wilderness poachers, but it doesn't bother me in the slightest to see a guy on a snowmachine. Simple. I hear them, I move to the side, and smile and wave. They usually give a positive head Bob, or even stop to chat. I just do it so that they know I'm not "one of you people".

And sleds still go up to skyline plenty. They where there doing shuttle laps on moonlight a couple weeks ago.  Passed me and my dog a few times on the road up.. smiling and having a good time. Being courteous when they went by.

So many positive encounters with sledders. Never really any bad ones.
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John Morrow
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PostMon Mar 13, 2017 4:25 pm 
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CC wrote:
RandyHiker wrote:
however to legally operating a snow cat on a snow covered USFS road requires a special use permit from the USFS. 


And how do cats make the road bumpy?

You'd have to ask the local snowmobile grooming councils.  They supported the implementation of the said regulation. Which is accurate on certain ranger districts, but applies only to snow covered USFS roads that are groomed for winter snowmobile use.  It is my understanding that the potential for longitudinal ruts created by tracked vehicles not steered by skis can be hazardous to snowmobile operators expecting a smooth groomed surface.

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“Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?”-Mary Oliver

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CC
cascade curmudgeon



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CC
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cascade curmudgeon
PostMon Mar 13, 2017 8:32 pm 
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John Morrow wrote:
CC wrote:
RandyHiker wrote:
however to legally operating a snow cat on a snow covered USFS road requires a special use permit from the USFS. 


And how do cats make the road bumpy?

You'd have to ask the local snowmobile grooming councils.  They supported the implementation of the said regulation. Which is accurate on certain ranger districts, but applies only to snow covered USFS roads that are groomed for winter snowmobile use.  It is my understanding that the potential for longitudinal ruts created by tracked vehicles not steered by skis can be hazardous to snowmobile operators expecting a smooth groomed surface.

OK, on groomed  roads.  Of course that makes sense.  I thought he meant all FS roads.

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No matter how cynical you become, it's not enough to keep up.  Jane Wagner/Lily Tomlin
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CC
cascade curmudgeon



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CC
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cascade curmudgeon
PostMon Mar 13, 2017 8:39 pm 
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christensent wrote:
I mean, do you think my picture was photoshopped?

Nope.  Looks like about 30."   If you drive Smithbrook now I'll believe you about the 6'.

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No matter how cynical you become, it's not enough to keep up.  Jane Wagner/Lily Tomlin
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