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trestle
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trestle
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 Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:23 pm |
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Excellent post MG. I don't think Wilderness is the only designation in question but I understand your points. However, you might be one of the few in your position that also values tribal heritage. The extraction crowd is not typically known for honoring tribal heritage. (btw, I'm not trying to lump you in with any particular crowd and I know you care about more than just extraction)
| MtnGoat wrote: | | If only we could come to agreements on how to relate both goals as best we can |
Unfortunately it appears we're in a zero-sum era of government, zero-sum doctrine not allowing for any agreements which include opposing or different goals. I only say this because it has been stated time and again by the Executive branch and the current party in power and there is plenty of evidence from the last 8 years to support my conjecture. Compromise (a single word that symbolizes your quoted statement above) does not appear to be in their lexicon.
"Life favors the prepared." - Edna Mode
"Life favors the prepared." - Edna Mode
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Ski
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Joined: 28 May 2005
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Ski
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Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:04 pm |
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| MtnGoat wrote: | | Not being able to see your utter disregard for the folks whose lives, jobs, and homes which you support interference with, leads to the sort of outcome you wound up with in 2016. |
^ This is what happens when you make assumptions about other peoples' statements and try to read stuff into them that isn't there.
Where did I say I had "utter disregard for the folks"? Please point that part out for me.
No?
Because it wasn't there.
What I have "utter disregard" for is people who believe they can do stuff that isn't within the parameters of current LAW.
If you don't like the way the LAW is written, run for Congress and change the law.
There are no provisions within any federal statutes concerning the management of federally-owned public lands that allow individual states to change the rules and "take back" those same federally-owned public lands.
Get it now?
Use the Google.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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drm
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drm
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Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:49 am |
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| Ski wrote: | | There are no provisions within any federal statutes concerning the management of federally-owned public lands that allow individual states to change the rules and "take back" those same federally-owned public lands. |
Well I did some online searches once to check into the claims of people who say that Federal ownership of so much land is actually illegal, the claim being that it is only legal for the Feds to own land that is needed for specific installations, like military bases or Federal buildings. Not vast swathes of undeveloped land. I found that many websites referenced a law that they claimed was passed by Congress in 1780. Problem is that Congress did not exist in 1780. I don't know if it was passed by the Continental Congress or not, as I could find no record of it online, aside from excerpts posted on these states rights websites. But I don't think any law passed before the ratification of the Constitution and the convening of the first Congress (3/4/1789) is enforceable today.
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MtnGoat
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MtnGoat
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Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:56 am |
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| Ski wrote: | | ^ This is what happens when you make assumptions about other peoples' statements and try to read stuff into them that isn't there.
Where did I say I had "utter disregard for the folks"? Please point that part out for me.
No?
Because it wasn't there.
What I have "utter disregard" for is people who believe they can do stuff that isn't within the parameters of current LAW.
If you don't like the way the LAW is written, run for Congress and change the law.
There are no provisions within any federal statutes concerning the management of federally-owned public lands that allow individual states to change the rules and "take back" those same federally-owned public lands.
Get it now?
Use the Google. |
I didn't claim you said you had utter disregard. I merely noted your display of it.
This is what happens when you make assumptions about other peoples' statements and try to read stuff into them that isn't there.
And you certainly didn't put any of those qualifiers about only disregard for people with beliefs about what they can do outside the law, etc etc, into that statement.
Chaffetz was working on changing the law as you suggest. That's what the thread is about, after all.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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MtnGoat
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Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:57 am |
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| trestle wrote: | | Compromise (a single word that symbolizes your quoted statement above) does not appear to be in their lexicon. |
Let's keep it in ours, spread the word, and maybe we can get to less contention by not assuming the worst about other interests from the git go.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Ski
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Ski
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Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:35 am |
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Keep tryin' there.... even a blind hog finds an acorn once in a while. Sorry my comment caused you confusion.
| MtnGoat wrote: | | "...land being locked away as wilderness..." |
This whole dog-whistle "locking up" tag you attempt to put on this deal is a fallacy.
Same argument was used when they created Olympic National Park - timber barons and Washington State Governor and Senators were all adamantly opposed to its creation.
FDR outflanked them all the we got a National Park.
In another thread I just posted the numbers for the dollars and number of jobs that Olympic National Park generated.
You can argue about the methodology used by the people who do those studies, but no matter how you crunch the numbers, the bottom line is that there is a hell of a lot of money pumped into Washington State's economy in the form of tourism dollars directly (or indirectly) because we do have that National Park up there.
I would posit that the net dollar amount, and the actual number of full-time jobs is more than likely greater than that which would be realized from a timber-based economy (or from other resource-extraction industries.)
So your statement and the arguments of those who support this fantasy of turning over management of those lands back to the states is based on a false assumption: that these lands are "locked up", when in fact they're open to the public for their use. (Assuming of course they don't pull another dumb-ass "shut down the government" stunt again.)
They're open for fishing, hunting, skydiving, mountain biking, hiking, climbing, Frisbee-tossing, and all kinds of other cool stuff.
They're not open for oil drilling, mining, 1/4-mile AA fueler drag racing, launching of intercontinental ballistic missiles, steamship repair facilities, and other uses for which they're not intended.
The only federally-owned public lands I know of that are "locked up" are those that are seasonally closed for species of concern - like grizzly bear habitat over in the Selkirks.
The flaw in your argument is that resource extraction in the form of oil drilling and mining is going after a finite resource. Once the stuff is pulled out of the ground, there's not much left other than devastation.
You can argue all you want about how those lands are "rehabilitated" after the fact, but the truth is that they're never the same again, because mining interests don't give a goddam about the mess they leave behind for the taxpayers to clean up, and oil companies aren't much better. (see also: Asarco smelter clean-up in Tacoma, Washington. see also: Exxon-Valdez oil spill.)
When you designate lands for public use for recreation, that's a "forever" deal. We get to milk that cow until hell freezes over - just like we're doing right now up at Olympic National Park; Washington State's number one cash cow.
Resource extraction for timber's a different deal and I think I've made my position on that fairly clear in other threads - gotta love a money-maker that just keeps growing back over and over - there are, admittedly, some places where it just isn't appropriate - like National Parks.
As for the subject of the thread: Chaffetz is bowing out, supposedly because of "heel spurs". Just my lousy opinion, but I think in his capacity as Chairman of the Oversight Committee he started feeling the heat when he got too close to the fire and he lacks the intestinal fortitude to proceed forth, something that fortunately can't be said of Mr. Cummings. (Just my lousy opinion, of course.)
So maybe this whole idea will blow over when Chaffetz leaves. Who knows? Be assured some other nut-ball will keep bringing it up, but it's a non-starter. Once the Congressmen and Senators look at the actual dollars being generated by those areas from tourist dollars, they'd be crazy to work toward killing that Golden Goose. Moreover, it would be political suicide, and most of them are aware of that.
Cheers!
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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MtnGoat
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MtnGoat
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Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:39 am |
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It didn't cause me any confusion. I read the plain meaning of your words. I don't give a rip is pretty clear.
All resources are finite. Even sun light is not an inexhaustable resource..it will die, after all.
The real question is, how does this fact play out in economics, since resources are obtained for human wants and the interaction of price vs supply has a lot of twists and turns...like prices due to scarcity *increasing* reserves.
IF we're going to play the finite game, then that opens up an entirely new line of questions I'm not sure you'll care for....like how you can justify the use of a single nail. Iron is finite, and you're using it.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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trestle
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trestle
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Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:55 pm |
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| MtnGoat wrote: | | trestle wrote: | | Compromise (a single word that symbolizes your quoted statement above) does not appear to be in their lexicon. |
Let's keep it in ours, spread the word, and maybe we can get to less contention by not assuming the worst about other interests from the git go. |
Seriously? One side assumes the worst and hates the other so much they did NOTHING for 8 years other than obfuscate, obstruct, and deny. And they even stated it as their goal, publicly for all to hear.
Of course we'll continue to spread the word, maybe someday they'll actually listen. One can only hope.
"Life favors the prepared." - Edna Mode
"Life favors the prepared." - Edna Mode
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MtnGoat
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MtnGoat
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Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:16 pm |
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Perhaps there's a tiny bit of that both ways, huh?
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Ski
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Ski
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Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:44 pm |
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| Sarek, speaking to Captain Kirk after being accosted by Ambassador Gav (Journey to Babel - Season 2, Episode 10) wrote: | | "Tellerites don't argue for a reason- they just argue." |
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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MtnGoat
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MtnGoat
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Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:04 am |
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Lol, now it's down to snark.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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cefire
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cefire
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Mon May 29, 2017 5:00 pm |
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Seems like you deserved at least a bit of snark, no?
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wildernessed
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Progress relies upon the passing of generations and old ideas.
Living in the Anthropocene
Living in the Anthropocene
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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treeswarper
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Tue May 30, 2017 2:49 pm |
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| joker wrote: | Big anti-whoopee to the many people who have benefitted since the '90s designation of GSENM[/url]. E.g. here's a comment from a local (see linked letter for their full comments):| Quote: | | In fact, the monument has improved the economy in neighboring areas to the point where personal per capita income over the past six years in Garfield County has outperformed the Utah average. I have visited Escalante many times over the last decade, and I have seen many economic gains. In the past few years, a beautiful new clinic has opened with a pharmacy and dental care facilities. Furthermore, there are markets, motels, restaurants, outfitters, tour services and a huge new home store.Those who wish to reduce the size of the monument claim that 81 jobs have been lost due to the monument’s establishment in 1996. The argument that jobs have been lost fails to mention the many jobs gained. The monument’s neighboring communities have experienced an economic transition, leaving behind one based on ranching/agriculture and resource extraction to an economy that benefits greatly from increased tourism.The Escalante Chamber of Commerce reports that the area is experiencing an economic boom. Businesses are reporting record years. In fact, finding enough people to fill jobs has become a problem as there is limited long-term rental housing available, and the cost of buying a house is becoming difficult for some due to increased housing values and limited supply. |
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Must be where the doctor who used to be in Packwood went to, along with the pharmacy, cafes and sigh, even the laundromat.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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joker
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joker
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Wed May 31, 2017 8:56 am |
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Could well be. Those are the sorts of services that folks have appreciated showing up down there. The locals I met have embraced the influx of tourists/recreationalists, guides, etc. and have figured out how to make it work for them. I'm sure there are a few folks I didn't meet who are not happy about the fact that the monument took away a few mining or ranch/cowboy type jobs - so it goes. Similar to where I grew up - some former fishermen in Gloucester Ma have embraced the shift to a tourist and yuppy economy there, whereas some are bitter about the decline due to the collapse of the resource they'd depended on for their favored livelihoods.
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