| Previous :: Next Topic |
| Author |
Message |
wiki summary
|
Wiki summmary last edited by Tom on Sat May 06, 2017 3:37 pm (this post can be edited by any member) |
| Back to top |
|
 |
Malachai Constant
Member
Joined: 13 Jan 2002
Posts: 16092 | TRs | Pics
Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
Spoke yesterday with a Vietnam vet from Provo who goes there often (gave us a jeep ride). He is for the monument and has spoke with the Dene and Ute, they all are for it. Rangers all say there will still be hunting and 4x4 (only way to get to most places may be limits on ATV. Comment now!
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
|
| Back to top |
 
|
|
MtnGoat
Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lyle, WA |
|
MtnGoat
Member
|
 Tue May 16, 2017 5:25 pm |
|
|
| Ski wrote: | | And exactly what evidence exists that any user groups are going to be excluded?
If the 4x4 user group chooses not to follow the regulations, if they go in and rip the landscape up (as they did over on Oak Creek and some other areas), then the land managers are well within their statutory rights to exclude those user groups and ban them from using the area. It wouldn't be the first time that's happened.
Hunting regulations change all the time. Nothing new there. |
You provided my evidence.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Malachai Constant
Member
Joined: 13 Jan 2002
Posts: 16092 | TRs | Pics
Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
The DOI website for the comment form is so slow you cannot download the form must be using a 2400 baud modem, figures. No point advuing with the goat he says the same thing everytime, and always posts last.
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jinx'sboy
Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2008
Posts: 931 | TRs | Pics
Location: on a great circle route |
I just sent a donation in support of the Bears Ears. Here is the local group that was instrumental in getting the original designation last winter.
It is a small group that needs help. https://www.friendsofcedarmesa.org/
One of my oldest friends lives in Bluff. He is a Chair of the Board of FOCM and will be the lead plaintiff when the inevitable suit happens.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MtnGoat
Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lyle, WA |
|
MtnGoat
Member
|
Tue May 16, 2017 7:57 pm |
|
|
| Malachai Constant wrote: | | The DOI website for the comment form is so slow you cannot download the form must be using a 2400 baud modem, figures. No point advuing with the goat he says the same thing everytime, and always posts last. |
LOL! Gosh, I have an outlook I consistently defend, I know no one else does, right? 
And my magic extends to somehow controlling *other* people's posts so I'm last.
Your critique looks more like a have to say something drive by than one propelled by, oh I don't now, something approximating substance.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ski
><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 12832 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma |
|
Ski
><((((°>
|
Tue May 16, 2017 8:39 pm |
|
|
| MtnGoat wrote: | | You provided my evidence. |
Well... what I pointed out in my post above would hold true if it were a National Park, National Monument, National Forest, BLM land, DNR land, National Wildlife Refuge, State Game Parcel, State Wildlife Refuge, or a municipal city park, so I'm at a loss to understand what point you're trying so hard to prove.
| Sarek, speaking to Captain Kirk after being accosted by Ambassador Gav (Journey to Babel - Season 2, Episode 10 wrote: | | "Tellerites don't argue for a reason- they just argue." |
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MtnGoat
Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lyle, WA |
|
MtnGoat
Member
|
Tue May 16, 2017 8:43 pm |
|
|
I don't recall trying particularly hard, it's interesting that you perceive something different.
Special designations bring with them special rules for a reason, and this means more pressure on access because of those special rules. Poor behavior by a minority will get more attention in a national monument than in standard BLM land, for example.
After designation of ALW, some worked long and hard to ratchet to shutting down the MFK..and got their wish. The incremental approach to shutting out user groups is not a new one. As I noted before, if there were written guarantees this would not be the case, there'd be less fully justified suspicion of new special designations.
It does appear some here love to argue in order to argue, astute observation. We have one guy who stops in to add nothing but snark, if that doesn't count I don't know what does. Now and then one might think that only the hallelujah chorus posters are welcome.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ski
><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 12832 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma |
|
Ski
><((((°>
|
Tue May 16, 2017 8:49 pm |
|
|
| MtnGoat wrote: | | Poor behavior by a minority will get more attention in a national monument than in standard BLM land, for example. |
What evidence do you have to substantiate that claim?
The actions of land managers are determined more by having adequate staff and funding than what particular agency they're working for.
But go ahead: argue whatever point it is you're trying to make.
Sounds to me like you're wanting some chiseled-in-stone-iron-clad guarantee that hunting and 4x4 use can continue as before unabated regardless of circumstances. Am I missing something there?
You're not going to get that kind of "guarantee". That's not going to happen. So because of that you believe that we should NOT have "National Monuments"?
What exactly is the problem?
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MtnGoat
Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lyle, WA |
|
MtnGoat
Member
|
Tue May 16, 2017 8:59 pm |
|
|
Thank you so kindly for your permission to make my argument.
I stated the problem.
The 'assurances' given other user groups aren't even paper thin, they're devoid of substance. They're noise to defuse opposition only for so long as the designation is not certain.
Yes, I'm wanting that chiseled in stone ironclad, just like those *for* the special protections want that same thing in the protections. Fair is fair.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
|
| Back to top |
|
|
drm
Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 1376 | TRs | Pics
Location: The Dalles, OR |
|
drm
Member
|
Wed May 17, 2017 7:43 am |
|
|
| Ski wrote: | | There is no provision in the Antiquities Act of 1906 for UNdoing a National Park or National Monument. |
This is true but I saw a conservative website that said that there is no question that a President can undo designations and they claimed that nobody doubts this. Of course many people doubt this, but I'm guessing our President and his staff aren't reading anything from the doubters. The fact that presidents on a number of occasions have removed land from monuments, decreasing their size, using the Antiquities Act, certainly makes a case. Of course those actions were modest and so were not challenged.
I think it takes a while for the economic benefit of a designation to really kick in as businesses respond to a new demand. This makes it much more politically palatable to undo Bear Ears than Grand Staircase Escalante. But with so much chaos emanating from the WH these days, who knows if this will ever get addressed. The President's executive orders have created a slew of committees and requests for studies, and very few actual changes.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ski
><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 12832 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma |
|
Ski
><((((°>
|
Wed May 17, 2017 1:15 pm |
|
|
| MtnGoat wrote: | | The 'assurances' given other user groups aren't even paper thin, they're devoid of substance. They're noise to defuse opposition only for so long as the designation is not certain.
Yes, I'm wanting that chiseled in stone ironclad, just like those *for* the special protections want that same thing in the protections. Fair is fair. |
So.... based on that argument, there shouldn't be ANY "National Monuments" because you can't have your way? Are you holding your breath until you turn blue?
As I said above: use regulations concerning 4x4's and hunting are (as far as I know) never "permanent", but rather are always in some state of flux. That's how it works. Fair or otherwise, that's how it works.
You're asking for some sort of "forever guarantee", which (as you pointed out in another thread) is really wishful thinking: the sun could burn out next week, and where would that leave us?
So... keep at it... but what you're saying isn't logical or practical, even if you can manage to weave lots of multi-syllable words into your posts. 
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ski
><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 12832 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma |
|
Ski
><((((°>
|
Wed May 17, 2017 1:20 pm |
|
|
| drm wrote: | | The fact that presidents on a number of occasions have removed land from monuments, decreasing their size, using the Antiquities Act, certainly makes a case. Of course those actions were modest and so were not challenged. |
Only one I know of would be Olympic. My memory's fuzzy on when it was "forest reserve" and when it became "monument" and then "national forest", but you are correct: the size of the unit was adjusted a few times. There were challenges to the reductions, but they fell on deaf ears in the political climate of the day, when Washington's economy was overwhelmingly timber-based.
In the current era, I think that the opposition would have much more effectiveness; they're better organized, more well-funded, and far more politically astute than the fledgling groups of the early 20th Century.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
|
| Back to top |
|
|
drm
Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 1376 | TRs | Pics
Location: The Dalles, OR |
|
drm
Member
|
Wed May 17, 2017 2:08 pm |
|
|
| Quote: | | President Wilson cut the Mount Olympus National Monument (now a national park) by nearly half; President Eisenhower reduced the Great Sand Dunes (also now a national park) by 25 percent; and President Taft reduced the Navajo National Monument, which he himself had established just three years earlier, by nearly 90 percent. |
http://www.csmonitor.com/Environment/2017/0426/Can-the-president-shrink-or-even-eliminate-national-monuments
but also
| Quote: | | But, legal scholars note, none of those reductions were ever challenged in court, so there is no legal opinion on whether presidents actually had the power to make them. And all of them occurred prior to the Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976, which some experts believe more explicitly limits presidential powers to revoke or change monuments. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MtnGoat
Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lyle, WA |
|
MtnGoat
Member
|
Wed May 17, 2017 2:19 pm |
|
|
| Ski wrote: | | So.... based on that argument, there shouldn't be ANY "National Monuments" because you can't have your way? Are you holding your breath until you turn blue?
As I said above: use regulations concerning 4x4's and hunting are (as far as I know) never "permanent", but rather are always in some state of flux. That's how it works. Fair or otherwise, that's how it works.
You're asking for some sort of "forever guarantee", which (as you pointed out in another thread) is really wishful thinking: the sun could burn out next week, and where would that leave us?
So... keep at it... but what you're saying isn't logical or practical, even if you can manage to weave lots of multi-syllable words into your posts. |
I'm not sure what your problem is with attributing arguments to me I've never made and which are not inferred by them, either. I'd have a look at that tendency, myself. Including the puerile gaslighting attempt. And the nothingburger argument complaining about words.
My arguments are clear and I work to make them so. No author can account for the *intentional* desire to not grasp arguments clearly spelled out. You choose to play social games using innuendo, strawman insertions, and snark. I see other folks who disagree with me here and who deal with my arguments using spam free counter arguments or observations. DRM. Doppleganger.
On to actual content after dealing with churn.
Regulations concerning the designations are set in stone, and of course supporters expect that. I don't see what's unreasonable about folks wanting recreation access they prefer guaranteed the same kinds of protections. It would certainly aid in the creation of the areas by reducing the amount of opposition and making allies out of enemies.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
|
| Back to top |
|
|
trestle
Member
Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 2093 | TRs | Pics
Location: the Oly Pen |
|
trestle
Member
|
Wed May 17, 2017 6:22 pm |
|
|
MG, not to get too specific, but I believe you're (generally) arguing for more local control, even as far down as district rangers, for determining usage policies on federal lands. Wouldn't they be tying their own hands by writing specific policy for all users? Isn't this the type of bureaucracy we're trying to avoid in the first place? Maybe I didn't read all of your posts close enough or maybe I'm combining threads.
"Life favors the prepared." - Edna Mode
"Life favors the prepared." - Edna Mode
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Disclosure: As an Amazon Associate NWHikers.net earns from qualifying purchases when you use our link(s). |
