[wiki summary]

Basin and Range Bears Ears Berryessa Snow Mountain Canyons of the Ancients Carrizo Plain Cascade Siskiyou Craters of the Moon Giant Sequoia Gold Butte Grand Canyon-Parashant Grand Staircase-Escalante Hanford Reach Ironwood Forest Mojave Trails Organ Mountains-Desert Peaks Rio Grande del Norte Sand to Snow San Gabriel Mountains Sonoran Desert Upper Missouri River Breaks Vermilion Cliffs Katahadin Woods and Waters Marine: Marianas Trench Northeast Canyons and Seamounts Pacific Remote Islands Papahanaumokuakea Rose Atoll

[MtnGoat]

Hi Trestle, it's not so much local control, no. It's admission that these folks have a right to expect access for their existing uses just as much as the folks with their cultural concerns have a right to expect some protection. And that this is not unreasonable since it is, as I"m often loftily told, public land. Some guarantees laid down to protect that access would go a long ways towards getting compromises made. The people wanting protections expect guarantees in the form of the status been sought. It's just as reasonable to extend access protections to folks justifiably worried they will end up locked out and denied their access and uses. I am not even talking commercial interests. Thanks for the common courtesy of reading my arguments, a civil set of observations and notes, and no ramming words into my gullet.

[Ski]

Yeah okay sure fine. I guess the best thing for you to do is just be against all National Monuments, because land use rules change now and then, and always have. Or... .you could put on your big boy pants and realize that rules and regulations get changed sometimes and just live with it like everybody else. Or.... continue holding your breath to prove to the universe how right you are. Actually I don't really give a damn. I'll submit a comment and what you think about it will have absolutely ZERO effect on my opinions. As for the rest of that gas... well... it's just gas, but you do make a good attempt at trying to out-wordsmith George F. Will.

[MtnGoat]

You keep returning to the strawman extremities of a position I do not hold and have not articulated, IE no national monuments. It seems like you have no room for the idea that someone can argue for a middle ground. And returning to the derisive comments as well. I know you don't give a damn, you've articulated this kind of disregard before.

[Malachai Constant]

What is ihe difference between ISIS blowing up Buddas and the admistration fracking and strip mining in areas sacred to native americans?

[trestle]

MC, I'll attempt to answer by saying very little, at least in cultural terms. A capitalist would argue that Native Americans have the "option" to incorporate and acquire the land/mineral rights whereas rural Afghanis likely only had an option to join the Taliban or not. A sociologist might argue that the coercion applied by the Taliban and corporate interests are essentially parallel, with obvious contextual differences. Again, very little difference overall when referring to the destruction/desecration of cultural sites.

[treeswarper]

[trestle]

Maybe these are applicable: Tse-whit-zen, Marmes Rock Shelter, Kettle Falls, and the Dalles.

[Ski]

^ well.... you could say the same about Layser Cave just south of Randle, or the petroglyphs that were obliterated by graffiti over on the upper Yakima River between Yakima and Naches, or any number of other archaeological sites anywhere on the continent. I'm not sure you can draw any lines between the Buddha statues the Taliban blew up and the damage done to archaeological sites as a consequence of development or brainless vandalism... the action by the Taliban was a deliberate attempt to erase a culture. I think a more appropriate comparison might be the destruction of the Mayan codexes in the 16th century by Diego de Landa. Just my two cents on that one.

[Malachai Constant]

Ther are many examples of xtian misionaries cometting cultural genocide. Such as in Hawaii, africa, in the assuat agains sexual minorites, and, of course near extinction of native culture in the US, Canada, and Australia all in the name of god. What thr Spanish started in the SW continued with xian and mormans. It makes little dicference if it is intentional or collateral damage in a quest for oil we do not really need.The oil leads to access which leadd to vandalisim. It is simple as war leads to death.

[trestle]

Well Mal, if you feel so strongly, why did you pose the question? (to be clear, said with tongue in cheek) Christian missionaries present a further sidebar but you're certainly not wrong. Trying to stay on thread though....Bears Ears (SW) is threatened as much by uranium extraction as oil....and our globe is ever-shrinking. Vandalism. A new topic in the conversation. Is this geologic vandalism, like the toppling of Pompey's Pillar on the Yellowstone a few years back? Industrial/environmental vandalism such as cattle grazing on public lands? Bolts on rock walls in the Wilderness? As for oil...petroleum products are interwoven throughout our society. I'd love to see our vehicles powered by something else as well as our textiles....but it will take a catastrophic change to shift us away from plastics. I have hope for ecologically-sound 3-D printing and the creativity of the generations to come.

[trestle]

[trestle]

[Ski]

^ that goes off into an entirely different realm there, but yeah... what happened here locally was really over the top - wiping out the Camas root and eliminating a staple part of the diet, forcing cows milk into diets of a people who suffered from all kinds of GI problems as a result, virtual eradication of some of the languages, etc. ... but not much different (in that regard) than any other elimination of any culture by another society that displaced the one preceding it.

[treeswarper]

Well goodness, I had no idea that the plan was to do away with the monuments, put the indigenous people in boarding schools, convert everybody to Christianity, and blow up all the cultural sites! Good heavens, we must stop this!

[trestle]

touche. we're drifting a little. Here are the considerations for status review, an interesting list.