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Wiki summmary last edited by Tom on Sat May 06, 2017 3:37 pm (this post can be edited by any member) |
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Malachai Constant
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Joined: 13 Jan 2002
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Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
Bears Ears reduced by 80% Grand Escaladeby 45% after 95% of public comments were against any reduction including great majority of Utahians.  
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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MtnGoat
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MtnGoat
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 Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:12 pm |
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Is that an actual majority of Utahns or a majority of folks in comments?
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Malachai Constant
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Joined: 13 Jan 2002
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Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
Both most people in Utah get more income from tourism than oil extraction. The figures are available and over 60% of Utah residents are against this. The area is filled with exploratory wells that came up dry and only one lease remains and the owner is under interested. This whole thing is Kabuki and the land was all federal to begin National Forest and BLM.
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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MtnGoat
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MtnGoat
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Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:18 pm |
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| Quote: | | Sen. Martin Heinrich, a New Mexico Democrat, said after Trump's speech that his decision 'tears at the heart of America's conservation legacy and is a direct assault on sacred lands and tribal sovereignty.'
'President Trump has denied future generations the opportunity to learn about the past and explore the remote mesas and canyons that have inspired visitors and inhabitants, dating back thousands of years,' he claimed.
'I'm confident that this shameful action will rightly face the same types of legal challenges as others pushed through by a White House hell-bent on appeasing a few extreme interests at the expense of the interests and values of the American people,' Heinrich added. |
Read more:
Mr Heinrich no future generations are denied the opportunity to learn about the past or explore the remote mesas. In fact, I bet more can explore them now than under the designation just removed.
Since the land was all Federal to begin with, why then it remains Federal and all the benefits of that designation remain, sans the top down hamstringing of extraction and recreation you get under monument management.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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gb
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gb
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Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:34 pm |
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MtnGoat
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MtnGoat
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Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:39 am |
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You mean they do not place additional limits upon extractive industries when monument status is applied? I don't understand the 'crap' claim.
Your link is interesting. I'm unaware of any language in the Antiquities act which says the president cannot change the boundaries of monuments which the president has the power to create.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:45 am |
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| Doppelganger wrote: | | MtnGoat wrote: | | You mean they do not place additional limits upon extractive industries when monument status is applied? I don't understand the 'crap' claim. |
I wasn't sure before, but now I am. Something's seriously ****ing wrong with you.
I'll let Yvon Chouinard say it.
“I’m going to sue him,” Chouinard said. “It seems the only thing this administration understands is lawsuits. I think it’s a shame that only 4% of American lands are national parks. Costa Rica’s got 10%. Chile will now have way more parks than we have. We need more, not less. This government is evil and I’m not going to sit back and let evil win.” |
That's nice. So some people want more restrictions upon citizens, in govt control of our land. Ok. I'm not one of them, obviously.
That this disagreement rises in your mind to the level of something (expletive) wrong with me, says more about you, than about me.
ALL govts are evil. Some more, some less. Some 2nd world nations have more govt control over a higher percentage of their land than we do. That's hardly a surprise, they have all sorts of bad ideas. I don't evaluate ideas on the basis of who else does what.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Schroder
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Schroder
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Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:17 am |
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MtnGoat, I suggest you go visit a mine in Nevada, as I have, and see first hand what happens to those lands being extracted. It's fit for no purpose afterward. They are literally moving entire mountains.
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MtnGoat
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MtnGoat
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Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:44 am |
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| Schroder wrote: | | MtnGoat, I suggest you go visit a mine in Nevada, as I have, and see first hand what happens to those lands being extracted. It's fit for no purpose afterward. They are literally moving entire mountains. |
I spent 5 years in gold exploration, including resurveying old mines for possible reopening, and a summer on a drill team for uranium. I've worked open pits, placer, hard rock. I know first hand what happens.
People need resources and pay for them. They come from somewhere. They move entire mountains to get them for people who then complain...on their iphones and laptops. This is not about purity and no damage, it's about what it actually takes to sustain the production behind the curtains of the green piety.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Stefan
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Stefan
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Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:45 am |
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| Schroder wrote: | | MtnGoat, I suggest you go visit a mine in Nevada, as I have, and see first hand what happens to those lands being extracted. It's fit for no purpose afterward. They are literally moving entire mountains. |
Have you seen the mountains they are creating in northeastern Wyoming? Mines can create mountains too! Slag piles from the coal mines!
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Schroder
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Schroder
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Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:40 pm |
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| MtnGoat wrote: | | People need resources and pay for them. They come from somewhere. They move entire mountains to get them for people who then complain...on their iphones and laptops. This is not about purity and no damage, it's about what it actually takes to sustain the production behind the curtains of the green piety. |
So then you're advocating this specifically for Grand Escalante and Bears Ears, which I presume you've visited.
Another one is Pebble Mine proposed right in the middle of the Bristol Bay salmon spawning grounds.
If we're so desperate that we need to sacrifice the nations most pristine areas to grab the last of the minerals, then we're reaching the end of our civilization.
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Token Civilian
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Let us review:
Lots of upset people because one man with his pen undoes what another man with his pen did.
Hmmm....what, oh what EVER could have prevented this? The world wonders.
Could this massive angst have been prevented had the last holder of the pen done things differently? Hmmm....what could have been done? Perhaps the last pen holder could have gone to the peoples representatives, the Congress, both the House and Senate, and used his oratory and political capital to see that there was an act passed protecting said lands?
Perhaps....had that occurred, then the changing of one man and the pen that he wields wouldn't have mattered? Perhaps, had this been done, it would have taken changing many people, in many different parts of the country.....and getting legislation passed again to undo things.
When you build in an expedient manner of sand, don't gripe when the changing tide washes away your efforts.
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MtnGoat
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MtnGoat
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Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:34 pm |
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| Schroder wrote: | | So then you're advocating this specifically for Grand Escalante and Bears Ears, which I presume you've visited.
Another one is Pebble Mine proposed right in the middle of the Bristol Bay salmon spawning grounds.
If we're so desperate that we need to sacrifice the nations most pristine areas to grab the last of the minerals, then we're reaching the end of our civilization. |
Nope, haven't visited any of them. The logic does not change based on my visitation or not.
I don't see production as desperation, I don't see pristine-ness as some fundamental value.... or humans and their desires for higher living standards and the production it requires, as a problem, bad or wrong.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:36 pm |
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| Token Civilian wrote: | | Let us review:
Lots of upset people because one man with his pen undoes what another man with his pen did.
Hmmm....what, oh what EVER could have prevented this? The world wonders.
Could this massive angst have been prevented had the last holder of the pen done things differently? Hmmm....what could have been done? Perhaps the last pen holder could have gone to the peoples representatives, the Congress, both the House and Senate, and used his oratory and political capital to see that there was an act passed protecting said lands?
Perhaps....had that occurred, then the changing of one man and the pen that he wields wouldn't have mattered? Perhaps, had this been done, it would have taken changing many people, in many different parts of the country.....and getting legislation passed again to undo things.
When you build in an expedient manner of sand, don't gripe when the changing tide washes away your efforts. |
I like this post, it speaks to something I've been wondering...why a single person should exert such power over public resources in this manner. So one does it and another undoes it. That's the nature of the game so long as it's an executive action. Looks like the Antiquities Act needs to be amended to me.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Schenk
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Joined: 16 Apr 2012
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Location: Traveling, with the bear, to the other side of the Mountain |
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Schenk
Off Leash Man
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Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:59 pm |
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| MtnGoat wrote: | | I spent 5 years in gold exploration, including resurveying old mines for possible reopening, and a summer on a drill team for uranium. I've worked open pits, placer, hard rock |
That explains a lot of your viewpoints. Most folks are reluctant to oppose their benefactors.
(in other words, don't bite the hand that feeds)
What I cannot fathom is why an entire industry depends on trashing such a small percentage of the land we have that is currently protected...and if it doesn't, then why the big push to reduce the size and protection of those monuments for what seems to be a drop in the bucket's worth of resources?
| MtnGoat wrote: | | People need resources and pay for them. They come from somewhere. They move entire mountains to get them for people who then complain...on their iphones and laptops. This is not about purity and no damage, it's about what it actually takes to sustain the production behind the curtains of the green piety. |
You make this statement as if the only available sources for resources are from fragile, wild, sacred, places. The USA won't fall apart if we don't exploit the last remaining 4% of protected land we have in the USA.
Nature exists with a stark indifference to humans' situation.
Nature exists with a stark indifference to humans' situation.
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