Forum Index > Stewardship > Dept of Interior begins review of 27 Monuments under Trump exec. Order.
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PostSat May 06, 2017 3:04 pm 
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Basin and Range
Bears Ears
Berryessa Snow Mountain
Canyons of the Ancients
Carrizo Plain
Cascade Siskiyou
Craters of the Moon
Giant Sequoia
Gold Butte
Grand Canyon-Parashant
Grand Staircase-Escalante
Hanford Reach
Ironwood Forest
Mojave Trails
Organ Mountains-Desert Peaks
Rio Grande del Norte
Sand to Snow
San Gabriel Mountains
Sonoran Desert
Upper Missouri River Breaks
Vermilion Cliffs
Katahadin Woods and Waters

Marine:
Marianas Trench
Northeast Canyons and Seamounts
Pacific Remote Islands
Papahanaumokuakea
Rose Atoll


Wiki summmary last edited by Tom on Sat May 06, 2017 3:37 pm (this post can be edited by any member)
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MtnGoat
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PostTue Dec 05, 2017 2:36 pm 
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Token Civilian wrote:
Let us review:

Lots of upset people because one man with his pen undoes what another man with his pen did.

Hmmm....what, oh what EVER could have prevented this?  The world wonders.

Could this massive angst have been prevented had the last holder of the pen done things differently?  Hmmm....what could have been done?  Perhaps the last pen holder could have gone to the peoples representatives, the Congress, both the House and Senate, and used his oratory and political capital to see that there was an act passed protecting said lands?

Perhaps....had that occurred, then the changing of one man and the pen that he wields wouldn't have mattered?  Perhaps, had this been done, it would have taken changing many people, in many different parts of the country.....and getting legislation passed again to undo things.

When you build in an expedient manner of sand, don't gripe when the changing tide washes away your efforts.

I like this post, it speaks to something I've been wondering...why a single person should exert such power over public resources in this manner. So one does it and another undoes it. That's the nature of the game so long as it's an executive action. Looks like the Antiquities Act needs to be amended to me.

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Schenk
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PostTue Dec 05, 2017 2:59 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
I spent 5 years in gold exploration, including resurveying old mines for possible reopening, and a summer on a drill team for uranium. I've worked open pits, placer, hard rock

That explains a lot of your viewpoints. Most folks are reluctant to oppose their benefactors.
(in other words, don't bite the hand that feeds)
What I cannot fathom is why  an entire industry depends on trashing such a small percentage of the land we have that is currently protected...and if it doesn't, then why the big push to reduce the size and protection of those monuments for what seems to be a drop in the bucket's worth of resources?

MtnGoat wrote:
People need resources and pay for them. They come from somewhere. They move entire mountains to get them for people who then complain...on their iphones and laptops. This is not about purity and no damage, it's about what it actually takes to sustain the production behind the curtains of the green piety.

You make this statement as if the only available sources for resources are from fragile, wild, sacred, places. The USA won't fall apart if we don't exploit the last remaining 4% of protected land we have in the USA.

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treeswarper
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PostTue Dec 05, 2017 3:00 pm 
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One thing to remember.  The Park Service never has enough funding or budget to take care of what they already have.  Why add more to this?

We all could stop mining if we stopped using things that use what is mined.  No market, no mining.  That's all you have to do -- get rid of the demand.  The same for logging.  Want to stop logging?  Don't use any wood product.  No paper, no boards, I believe even toothpaste has some wood in it so don't use toothpaste.  No market, no logging.

Pretty simple.  Could you give it all up?

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Schroder
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PostTue Dec 05, 2017 3:49 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
Nope, haven't visited any of them. The logic does not change based on my visitation or not.

There is no logic to what you advocate - taking the last piece of land to excavate the last piece of ore.

In the case of the Pebble Mine, it's not even an American company that's going to do the mining that has the potential to destroy the worlds largest fishery.

treeswarper wrote:
One thing to remember.  The Park Service never has enough funding or budget to take care of what they already have.  Why add more to this?

First, it's managed by BLM.  Second, it's not being added to, it's being withdrawn. Third, there are no facilities to maintain.

treeswarper wrote:
We all could stop mining if we stopped using things that use what is mined.  No market, no mining.  That's all you have to do -- get rid of the demand.  The same for logging.  Want to stop logging?  Don't use any wood product.  No paper, no boards, I believe even toothpaste has some wood in it so don't use toothpaste.  No market, no logging.

Pretty simple.  Could you give it all up?

You more than anyone should know the concepts of sustainable forestry.

I made my comment regarding mining.  If we're after the last piece of ore in the last piece of land then we're in real trouble.  That's not the case, though, but rather corporate greed driving all of this.
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PostTue Dec 05, 2017 5:06 pm 
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Schenk wrote:
That explains a lot of your viewpoints. Most folks are reluctant to oppose their benefactors.
(in other words, don't bite the hand that feeds)
What I cannot fathom is why  an entire industry depends on trashing such a small percentage of the land we have that is currently protected...and if it doesn't, then why the big push to reduce the size and protection of those monuments for what seems to be a drop in the bucket's worth of resources?

Schenk wrote:
You make this statement as if the only available sources for resources are from fragile, wild, sacred, places. The USA won't fall apart if we don't exploit the last remaining 4% of protected land we have in the USA.

That was 30 years ago. Now I'm just a regular recipient of the beneficence, just like anyone who purchases almost any product.

I don't see any arguments about an "entire industry" depending on 'trashing' such a small percentage of land. Nor about the USA falling apart.

Why the big push? Because simply declaring even more control over public lands is wrong, 4%, 40%, makes no difference when one opposes the principle to begin with. Reducing the area reduces the amount of wrong done, while of course failing to appease the critics who could well have seen 100% of the two designations, rescinded.

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treeswarper
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PostTue Dec 05, 2017 5:06 pm 
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But we are all to blame for using the metals and oil.  Or are we just a bunch of hypocrites?  Like I wanna stop the mining but I have to have the most recent electronic gadget and drive to the trailhead to go for a hike.

Think about it a bit.

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MtnGoat
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PostTue Dec 05, 2017 5:11 pm 
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Schroder wrote:
There is no logic to what you advocate - taking the last piece of land to excavate the last piece of ore.

In the case of the Pebble Mine, it's not even an American company that's going to do the mining that has the potential to destroy the worlds largest fishery.

It's strawman day every day on NWHikers advocacy page!

The last piece of land for the last piece of ore? Why do arguments which should have a solid basis require strawman methods?

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PostTue Dec 05, 2017 5:15 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:
But we are all to blame for using the metals and oil.  Or are we just a bunch of hypocrites?  Like I wanna stop the mining but I have to have the most recent electronic gadget and drive to the trailhead to go for a hike.

Think about it a bit.

Perhaps a registry is in order. Folks opposing mining agree to not purchase any product or utilize any benefit which can be traced to mining they oppose.

Unlike the claims I 'benefit' from things I don't get or support (like social services for example), we can identify the direct, objectively provable benefits merely by looking at the production chains of the goods and services desires, and cut them off via bar code. Nope, that ski has metal obtained from the iron mine, that electricity was generated and transmitted by an open pit you argued against, and your green car has batteries in it which required a massive toxic stew of epic proportions to be mined, refined, etc. The reality here is that such a thing would put the opponents of damaging nature back into the stone age, because the Iron age is too advanced...and environmentally damaging.

So much for this...New batteries for EV’s use “rust” for power storage

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PostTue Dec 05, 2017 5:42 pm 
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Doppelganger wrote:
I'll let Yvon Chouinard say it.“I’m going to sue him,” Chouinard said. “It seems the only thing this administration understands is lawsuits. I think it’s a shame that only 4% of American lands are national parks. Costa Rica’s got 10%. Chile will now have way more parks than we have. We need more, not less. This government is evil and I’m not going to sit back and let evil win.”


http://www.patagonia.com/home/
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PostTue Dec 05, 2017 5:55 pm 
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Token Civilian wrote:
Let us review:Lots of upset people because one man with his pen undoes what another man with his pen did.Hmmm....what, oh what EVER could have prevented this?  The world wonders.Could this massive angst have been prevented had the last holder of the pen done things differently?  Hmmm....what could have been done?  Perhaps the last pen holder could have gone to the peoples representatives, the Congress, both the House and Senate, and used his oratory and political capital to see that there was an act passed protecting said lands?  Perhaps....had that occurred, then the changing of one man and the pen that he wields wouldn't have mattered?  Perhaps, had this been done, it would have taken changing many people, in many different parts of the country.....and getting legislation passed again to undo things.When you build in an expedient manner of sand, don't gripe when the changing tide washes away your efforts.

Are you referring to Obama or Crooked Hillary's husband?   wink.gif
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MtnGoat
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PostTue Dec 05, 2017 6:04 pm 
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Monument designations should be congressional so debate and votes from representatives can take place. Then expanding or shrinking them couldn't flow from one person.

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Ski
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PostTue Dec 05, 2017 10:50 pm 
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^ If it were to the US Congress to designate Monuments, it would never get done.

The same could be said of some of our National Parks.

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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PostWed Dec 06, 2017 5:39 am 
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Congress does what the voters allow, period.Congress pretends to do their job because most voters pretend to do theirs.

The wacko right thinks it should be able to log and mine where ever whenever they want and the wacko left thinks we should never cut a tree or burn a drop of oil.Neither based on reality and here we are.The BLM has become the tool of the whacko/party in charge.Whackos made the monument too big on purpose and now whackos are making the monument too small on purpose.
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PostWed Dec 06, 2017 6:51 am 
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And yet Ski, doing the hard work to get Congress to legislate these protected lands is precisely what reflects that there is a sufficient consensus that they SHOULD be created.

Wilderness Act?  Passed Congress (difficult to do, requires 218+51+1).  Undoing Wilderness?  Takes an act of Congress (218+51+1).

One man with a pen only takes one man with a pen to undo.

So, get off your asses people and build the consensus necessary to get the 218 in the House, the 51 in the Senate and then finally the President to legislate these protections.

Can it be done?  Yes.....look at Green Mountain LO.  An Act of Congress saved it.  Clearly, when there is widespread public support for such things, it will get done.

All - And stop whining when a sand castle built by one is washed away when the tide changes.  And quite frankly, good riddance.  The Imperial Presidency is dangerous.  One man with a pen shouldn't be able to do these things.  Things SHOULD go through Congress.
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Schenk
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PostWed Dec 06, 2017 8:12 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
Folks opposing mining agree to not purchase any product or utilize any benefit which can be traced to mining they oppose.

It is quite a jump from folks wanting to keep protection over these relatively small areas, to claiming folks who oppose the exploitation of these areas are against any and all mining.  Simply not true.

Are there any good reasons why mining simply must happen in these spots as if there are no other alternatives? What ores/minerals are so unique to these areas, and are not obtainable anywhere else already?

And not to be simplistic, or cliche', but why don't we talk about recycling more? Reduction, reuse, etc?

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