Forum Index > Stewardship > Mountain Goat Management Plan Olympic National PARK 07/24/17
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PostFri Jul 28, 2017 8:12 pm 
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^ Perhaps pure speculation and conjecture on my part, but I'd venture that you and I are not the only ones in favor of their "lethal removal" option, based simply on the fact that "lethal removal" is being presented as part of the "preferred alternative" in their "management plan".

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PostFri Jul 28, 2017 8:42 pm 
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They tried to exterminate them before. Can't remember the years but quite some time ago. Seems like it was a three year program starting with relocation and ending with shooting them from helicopters. Obviously it wasn't too successful. What makes anyone think they are going to be more successful this time?
My personal opinion is they would be fine if their numbers were managed yearly. Right now they just increase a little every year until they are a problem.
The logical way would be with sport hunting but that will never happen.
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PostFri Jul 28, 2017 10:21 pm 
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From just a cost point of view I'm in favor of just using rifles. If separately some agency wants some of the goats, fine. It makes mores sense than moving them from somewhere else with a just ok population. It would be appropriate for receiving to pony up for cost delta.

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PostSat Jul 29, 2017 4:17 am 
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RandyHiker wrote:
If the goal is extermination from the Olympics,  would not simply making it "open season" for hunting and no limit on tags accomplish that goal at minimum cost and management overhead?

This option is considered (see DEIS chapter 2), but approving hunting in Olympic NP would require an act of Congress, which is both unlikely and outside of NPS control, so this option was dismissed from further consideration.

Humptulips wrote:
They tried to exterminate them before. Can't remember the years but quite some time ago. Seems like it was a three year program starting with relocation and ending with shooting them from helicopters. Obviously it wasn't too successful. What makes anyone think they are going to be more successful this time?

The 1980s effort was successful in reducing goat numbers from over 1000 to 389.  This dropped to about 300 where it remained stable for over a decade (i.e. was teetering on the edge of self-sustaining) (see DEIS Exec Summary & Chapter 1).  This suggests that cutting numbers a bit lower, and keeping each group below a few dozen, can lead to their extinction.  The 1990s planning effort was abandoned under imminent threat of lawsuit from animal rights groups.

At least locally, public sentiment has shifted in the years since due to discussion of goat impact on alpine and Bill Boardman's death.  Multi-agency cooperation and funding have come together, and together had the time and expertise to build a workable and "lawsuit proof" plan.

It'll be interesting to see whether public sentiment has shifted nationally.  There is more awareness of invasive exotic species, from Burmese pythons in the Everglades, asian carp in Illinois, zebra mussels in the Great Lakes, to barred owls here.

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RumiDude
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PostSun Jul 30, 2017 1:35 pm 
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Just think about the terrain a mountain goat traverses. Now picture shooting a goat AND retrieving it. Unless the carcasses are going to be abandoned and I am not sure how that would go over. It's not enough to just shoot the beast. This is part of the issue. And after several have been killed, it will become increasingly more difficult to hunt and retrieve the rest.

Rumi

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PostSun Jul 30, 2017 1:41 pm 
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crows will eat 'em.

no problem.  up.gif

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PostMon Jul 31, 2017 1:26 pm 
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RodF wrote:
This option is considered (see DEIS chapter 2), but approving hunting in Olympic NP would require an act of Congress, which is both unlikely and outside of NPS control, so this option was dismissed from further consideration.

I don't get this.  Isn't this the law as written?  Or am I just full of it?

TITLE 36–PARKS, FORESTS, AND PUBLIC PROPERTY CHAPTER I–NATIONAL PARK SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR PART 2–RESOURCE PROTECTION, PUBLIC USE AND RECREATION–Table of Contents Sec. 2.2 Wildlife protection. (a) The following are prohibited: (1) The taking of wildlife, except by authorized hunting and trapping activities conducted in accordance with paragraph (b) of this section. (2) The feeding, touching, teasing, frightening or intentional disturbing of wildlife nesting, breeding or other activities. (3) Possessing unlawfully taken wildlife or portions thereof. (b) Hunting and trapping. (1) Hunting shall be allowed in park areas where such activity is specifically mandated by Federal statutory law. (2) Hunting may be allowed in park areas where such activity is specifically authorized as a discretionary activity under Federal statutory law if the superintendent determines that such activity is consistent with public safety and enjoyment, and sound resource management principles. Such hunting shall be allowed pursuant to special regulations. (3) Trapping shall be allowed in park areas where such activity is specifically mandated by Federal statutory law. (4) Where hunting or trapping or both are authorized, such activities shall be conducted in accordance with Federal law and the laws of the State within whose exterior boundaries a park area or a portion thereof is located. Nonconflicting State laws are adopted as a part of these regulations. (c) Except in emergencies or in areas under the exclusive jurisdiction of the United States, the superintendent shall consult with appropriate State agencies before invoking the authority of Sec. 1.5 for the purpose of restricting hunting and trapping or closing park areas to the taking of wildlife where such activities are mandated or authorized by Federal statutory law. (d) The superintendent may establish conditions and procedures for transporting lawfully taken wildlife through the park area. Violation of these conditions and procedures is prohibited. (e) The Superintendent may designate all or portions of a park area as closed to the viewing of wildlife with an artificial light. Use of an artificial light for purposes of viewing wildlife in closed areas is prohibited. (f) Authorized persons may check hunting and trapping licenses and permits; inspect weapons, traps and hunting and trapping gear for compliance with equipment restrictions; and inspect wildlife that has been taken for compliance with species, size and other taking restrictions. (g) The regulations contained in this section apply, regardless of land ownership, on all lands and waters within a park area that are under the legislative jurisdiction of the United States. [48 FR 30282, June 30, 1983, as amended at 49 FR 18450, Apr. 30, 1984; 51 FR 33264, Sept. 19, 1986; 52 FR 35240, Sept. 18, 1987]

here is the source:
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-1998-title36-vol1/xml/CFR-1998-title36-vol1-sec2-2.xml

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PostMon Jul 31, 2017 10:23 pm 
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^ Not a clue.

As Rod said, it would most likely require an act of Congress to make it okay to hunt within the boundaries of Olympic National Park. I just don't see that as a possible option, as much as I would favor it as a course of action, the consequent (and doubtless inevitable) problems created by it notwithstanding.

Here's what looks like a great recipe for Barbecued Goat (known as "Chivito" in Argentina.)

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RodF
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PostTue Aug 01, 2017 12:54 am 
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Stefan wrote:
RodF wrote:
This option is considered (see DEIS chapter 2), but approving hunting in Olympic NP would require an act of Congress, which is both unlikely and outside of NPS control, so this option was dismissed from further consideration.

I don't get this.  Isn't this the law as written?  Or am I just full of it?

Yes, but that does not apply because hunting has never been "authorized under Federal statutory law" within Olympic NP, but instead has been forbidden.  The 1938 statute founding Olympic NP (16 USC 256b) explicitly reads "All hunting or the killing, wounding, or capturing at any time of any wild bird or animal, except dangerous animals when it is necessary to prevent them from destroying human lives or inflicting personal injury, is prohibited within the limits of the park."  Amending this statute would require an act of Congress.

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PostTue Aug 01, 2017 8:28 am 
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RodF wrote:
Yes, but that does not apply because hunting has never been "authorized under Federal statutory law" within Olympic NP, but instead has been forbidden.  The 1938 statute founding Olympic NP (16 USC 256b) explicitly reads "All hunting or the killing, wounding, or capturing at any time of any wild bird or animal, except dangerous animals when it is necessary to prevent them from destroying human lives or inflicting personal injury, is prohibited within the limits of the park."  Amending this statute would require an act of Congress.

Thanks for helping me understand the specifics.  Thanks!

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PostTue Aug 01, 2017 8:30 am 
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I also have had mountain goat meat.  It was pretty good with some spices and asparagus.  Pretty red meat.

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PostWed Aug 02, 2017 5:56 am 
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RodF wrote:
Stefan wrote:
RodF wrote:
This option is considered (see DEIS chapter 2), but approving hunting in Olympic NP would require an act of Congress, which is both unlikely and outside of NPS control, so this option was dismissed from further consideration.

I don't get this.  Isn't this the law as written?  Or am I just full of it?

Yes, but that does not apply because hunting has never been "authorized under Federal statutory law" within Olympic NP, but instead has been forbidden.  The 1938 statute founding Olympic NP (16 USC 256b) explicitly reads "All hunting or the killing, wounding, or capturing at any time of any wild bird or animal, except dangerous animals when it is necessary to prevent them from destroying human lives or inflicting personal injury, is prohibited within the limits of the park."  Amending this statute would require an act of Congress.

That would seem to make the plan to capture or kill the goats illegal. Looks like the only exception is for dangerous animals. I think quite a stretch to call the entire population of goats dangerous.
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PostMon Aug 07, 2017 10:54 am 
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Humptulips wrote:
RodF wrote:
"All hunting or the killing, wounding, or capturing at any time of any wild bird or animal, except dangerous animals when it is necessary to prevent them from destroying human lives or inflicting personal injury, is prohibited within the limits of the park..." (16 USC 256b)

That would seem to make the plan to capture or kill the goats illegal. Looks like the only exception is for dangerous animals. I think quite a stretch to call the entire population of goats dangerous.

NPS cites this general authority for exotic animal removal in prior cases:
"The Secretary may provide for the destruction of such animals and plant life as may be detrimental to the use of any System unit." (NPS Organic Act of 1916, 16 USC 3, now 54 USC 100752)

However, a similar question may be posed of it.

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PostTue Aug 08, 2017 3:53 am 
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The anadromous fish that are the worse off in the Olympics are the ones the government has been trying to restore for twenty years now.

Now I am reading that the government has been trying to exterminate a population of goats for over twenty years now and there are more of them than ever.
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PostTue Aug 08, 2017 11:56 am 
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The government has made NO efforts to exterminate goats in the last 20 years. Their population has exploded and has caused multiple impacts. It's far more than an emotional issue.

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