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Cascade Hiker Podcast
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PostThu Aug 03, 2017 3:51 pm 
We cover some of your questions in the interview... Did you listen? I would love to interview someone fro WDFW and ask them some of your questions!

Check out my hiking podcast at www.northcascadehiker.com
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Just_Some_Hiker
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PostThu Aug 03, 2017 3:56 pm 
Cascade Hiker Podcast wrote:
We cover some of your questions in the interview... Did you listen?
Negative.

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Cascade Hiker Podcast
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PostThu Aug 03, 2017 4:13 pm 
That was aimed at Bright River cause he asked so many. Brian mentions that the lakes without larger rivers did not have native fish. He mentions Wapato and a couple other larger valley floor lakes that do have native fish.

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mountainsandsound
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PostThu Aug 03, 2017 4:25 pm 
I am bored and my background is in fisheries biology, so I will succinctly answer some of your questions.
Bright River wrote:
The Questions are: is WDFW or others involved in planting fish actually managing fishing populations?
Yes. "Management" includes such decisions as harvest limits.
Bright River wrote:
Are Tripoids only planted in areas where there are no other fish, native or otherwise?
I am not sure about alpine likes specifically, but triploids are commonly planted in many lakes throughout Washington that are home to other species and non-triploid trout.
Bright River wrote:
Do non tripoid fish become adapted to alpine environments over time, and does reproduction exist to adapt fish to their environment over time?
Adaptation in the true sense of the word takes place over multiple generations via natural selection. Reproduction exists in all species to perpetuate the genetic material of the individual passing it on and adaptation is simply a by-product as selective pressures make their mark on a population through time. The short answer is no, triploids do not become adapted.
Bright River wrote:
Have some lakes that originally had cutthroat or brook trout ( or any other trout species apart from tripoid), lost their fish population? I can think of a number of such alpine lakes over the 50 years that I have been fishing the alpine lakes in WA.
Yes. Some alpine lakes over time have lost their fish populations.
Bright River wrote:
What is the purpose of planting Tripoid fish???? .
They are big and cannot reproduce.
Bright River wrote:
What about the grayling in some alpine lakes? Native?
Those would be planted too I believe. All higher elevation lakes were originally fishless, no matter the species. I know they are present in granite lake by Snowking mountain but I'm not aware of many others.
Bright River wrote:
Are the same people that are killing the fish in alpine lakes recently ( Blum Lakes); the same ones planting tripoids? And for what purpose.
For the case you mention, no. The park service killed the fish in Blum and they are not planting triploids in their place as far as I'm aware.
Bright River wrote:
Are some Cutthroat trout Natives??
yes, although many of the cutthroat planted in alpine lakes may not actually be of the coastal cutthroat variety, rather they would be westslope cutts which have a pretty restricted native range in Washington.
Bright River wrote:
And why has the fish population changed so much in the last 30 years. Was(Is) the stocking population breed for a different reason. What were the old Sourdough guys doing that the fish they stocked produced such a different result??
Some of the lakes are very marginal or impossible for natural reproduction and unfavorable for fish growth and so required constant immigration (i.e. stocking) to maintain. Stocking is not as prevalent in some areas as it once was.

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Tom
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PostThu Aug 03, 2017 7:43 pm 
Was stuck in traffic today and found it a good opportunity to listen to the podcast. Great interview and addressed many of the questions posed here. Be sure to check it out. up.gif

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Brian Curtis
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PostFri Aug 04, 2017 7:36 am 
Others have tackled Bright River's questions, but I'll add my perspective.
Bright River wrote:
The Questions are: is WDFW or others involved in planting fish actually managing fishing populations?
Yes, WDFW biologists do manage high lake fish populations. Trail Blazers and other groups like Backcountry Horsemen are volunteers for WDFW.
Bright River wrote:
Are Tripoids only planted in areas where there are no other fish, native or otherwise?
There are only a handful of high lakes in the state with native fish. None are stocked at all any more. Triploid fish are sometimes used in lakes with existing populations. They would only be stocked if the existing population was too low to provide a decent recreational fishery or if there was some chance the triploid fish could help to reduce or control the fish in the lake.
Bright River wrote:
Do non tripoid fish become adapted to alpine environments over time, and does reproduction exist to adapt fish to their environment over time?
Yes, sort of. Trout are quite adaptable and they will adjust their spawn timing to their environment fairly quickly if they are able to successfully reproduce. This is NOT a good thing in a high lake. If fish are able to successfully reproduce they will typically do it too well and their population will soon outstrip the available food supply. You will end up with a lake full of fish that only grow just large enough to spawn and then all their available energy will go to reproduction. The fish will be small and skinny and they can wipe out native amphibians and even produce shifts populations of zooplankton.
Bright River wrote:
Have some lakes that originally had cutthroat or brook trout ( or any other trout species apart from tripoid), lost their fish population? I can think of a number of such alpine lakes over the 50 years that I have been fishing the alpine lakes in WA.
Yes. And it is likely that the fish species you thought were "original" weren't even the original species stocked in the lake. Over the decades the fish species or strains stocked have often changed and sometimes successfully reproducing populations die out.
Bright River wrote:
What is the purpose of planting Tripoid fish???? ( I talked to A WDFW who admitted that he had illegally planted tripoids in a private lake, and his response was "We thought that we were doing a " public service"; when quizzed about what fishes he already thought were in the lake, he say they had no idea of what was there; he just wanted the public to catch fish.).
Fish that have been triploided can not reproduce either in the lake or in any downstream water they move into. This is very important for high lake fish management as it gives biologists a fish they can use that will not cause long term damage no matter what. Calling a fish a triploid is in one sense sort of meaningless. Any species of fish could be triploided and it sometimes occurs naturally. In WA high lakes we have stocked several varieties of triploid rainbow trout and cutthroat trout. Before stocking any fish in high lakes WDFW biologists know what is already in the lake.
Bright River wrote:
What about the grayling in some alpine lakes? Native?
Not native and no longer stocked here in WA.
Bright River wrote:
Are the same people that are killing the fish in alpine lakes recently ( Blum Lakes); the same ones planting tripoids? And for what purpose.
It was North Cascades National Park that removed the eastern brook char from the Blum Lakes. The EBs had been stocked in the 1930s and were reproducing horribly out of control. In general fish are not stocked in national parks, but NCNP is an exception. It is WDFW who stocks fish but they work closely with NCNP park biologists in park lakes. In NCNP lakes in the Skagit drainage they have been using Ross Lake RB and in the Lake Chelan drainage westslope CT. But they are quite interested in triploid trout and we will be stocking triploid RB in one park lake this summer. That particular lake drains to Canadian waters and that is what Canadian biologists prefer for that lake. They use triploid trout very extensively in BC.
Bright River wrote:
Are some Cutthroat trout Natives??
As previously discussed, only a handful of high lakes had native trout. I don't believe any of those populations were CT, but I'm not 100% sure about that. But there are CT that are native to the state. Coastal CT are native to west side waters and westslope CT are native to east side waters.
Bright River wrote:
And why has the fish population changed so much in the last 30 years. Was(Is) the stocking population breed for a different reason. What were the old Sourdough guys doing that the fish they stocked produced such a different result??
In the old days fish were often stocked with the hope they would reproduce. It was only later we learned how bad this could be. They also used to stock far greater quantities then we do now. Over the decades they have been steadily reducing the quantity of fish stocked as they have learned the carrying capacity of the lakes being stocked.

that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
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Brian Curtis
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PostFri Aug 04, 2017 7:45 am 
Bright River wrote:
Tripoid fish are not interested in breeding, they are interested in eating and will eat anything. They are characteristically big and fat relative to their head size. This means that they will decimate and compete with any native flora and fauna , including fish that may be better adapted to a certain aquatic ecosystem, as well as endangered amphibians. So in the end after all the tripoids have been caught or died out, the native fish populations is likely to be gone, as well as native amphibians.
I touched on a couple points relevant to this post in my previous reply. Triploid fish are not all the same and they don't become any more voracious because they are triploid. When you hear about triploids being stocked you are normally hearing about fish that were reared in a hatchery to a large size before stocking. They are very fat because they have been heavily fed in a hatchery situation. In high lakes they are stocked as fry and they will only get as fat and large as the food supply in the lake allows. When stocked in low densities our experience is that they do not extirpate native amphibians.

that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
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mountainsandsound
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PostFri Aug 04, 2017 8:22 am 
Brian Curtis wrote:
Bright River wrote:
Do non tripoid fish become adapted to alpine environments over time, and does reproduction exist to adapt fish to their environment over time?
Yes, sort of. Trout are quite adaptable and they will adjust their spawn timing to their environment fairly quickly if they are able to successfully reproduce. This is NOT a good thing in a high lake. If fish are able to successfully reproduce they will typically do it too well and their population will soon outstrip the available food supply. You will end up with a lake full of fish that only grow just large enough to spawn and then all their available energy will go to reproduction. The fish will be small and skinny and they can wipe out native amphibians and even produce shifts populations of zooplankton.
Whoops, sorry I guess I misread Bright River's original question, thinking we were still talking about triploids. For those who want to dive deeper, here is a link to an interesting WDFW document regarding fish in alpine lakes in NCNP: http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/00941/wdfw00941.pdf

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Bedivere
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PostFri Aug 04, 2017 3:06 pm 
Thanks for the link mountainstosound. That's going to take a little time to digest.

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mountainsandsound
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PostFri Aug 04, 2017 3:40 pm 
Sure. Yeah, I forgot to mention that it is a technical document with citations and all. Luckily ecology is usually a pretty accessible science until you start getting deep into the statistical analyses.

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Gregory
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PostFri Aug 04, 2017 5:06 pm 
Just_Some_Hiker wrote:
So there are no high alpine lakes in WA with native fish populations? confused.gif
The native trout in our fresh waters come from ocean going steelhead, sea-run cutthroat, Dolly Varden and bull trout.If a lake was not at one time connected to the salt or a system that was it will be void of fish.

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Jaberwock
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PostSat Aug 05, 2017 8:06 am 
Riverside Laker wrote:
I wish someone had started a planting program of M&Ms on Cascade and Olympic summits in 1933. Other candy bars might be better but would probably melt in the summer.
up.gif

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PostSat Aug 05, 2017 8:12 am 
Just_Some_Hiker wrote:
So there are no high alpine lakes in WA with native fish populations? confused.gif
Yep, pretty much no alpine lakes around here had fish since the last ice age, now we've put fish in pretty much all of them, impacting the biota that's been there since the last ice age. https://research.wsulibs.wsu.edu:8443/xmlui/bitstream/handle/2376/1610/v66?sequence=1 https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Paul_Corn/publication/227334186_The_Introduction_of_Nonnative_Fish_into_Wilderness_Lakes_Good_Intentions_Conflicting_Mandates_and_Unintended_Consequences/links/00b7d51bf35558ed70000000.pdf

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Brian Curtis
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PostSat Aug 05, 2017 8:49 am 
Jaberwock, both of your citations are old and have some issues. The Bahls paper from 1992 left out high lake work done here in WA that we know was sent to him and there has been a LOT of work done since that time. As an aside, I ran into Bahls in the Selway-Bitteroot Wilderness while he was doing sampling work prior that that paper's publication. The work Knapp did in the Sierras was very important. But it doesn't necessarily apply to our high lakes because the amphibians in our lakes have different life histories and habitat requirements then the mountain yellow-legged frog he studied. For research directly applicable to Washington high lakes the PDF linked to above is a good source of information and citations. The bottom line is that reproducing fish or fish stocked in high densities are harmful. But fish that do not reproduce and are stocked in low densities do not harm native species. That is one reason there is a lot of emphasis on sterile trout and it is why NCNP is removing reproducing populations. WDFW is well aware of these issues and looking at various strategies for controlling reproducing populations. In fact, WDFW first removed a population of reproducing EB in a high lake in 1973. The state of Idaho has done a ton of research on controlling reproducing populations and we will almost certainly be able to benefit from that.

that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
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Cascade Hiker Podcast
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PostMon Aug 07, 2017 9:05 pm 
Thanks to those that listened to the episode! Also, thanks Brian for fielding the questions.

Check out my hiking podcast at www.northcascadehiker.com
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