Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > Public Trust Doctrine and Tidelands Access
 Reply to topic
Previous :: Next Topic
Author Message
Alpendave
Member
Member


Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 863 | TRs | Pics
Alpendave
Member
PostWed Aug 23, 2017 6:26 am 
Link "The Public Trust Doctrine is a legal principle derived from English Common Law. The essence of the doctrine is that the waters of the state are a public resource owned by and available to all citizens equally for the purposes of navigation, conducting commerce, fishing, recreation and similar uses and that this trust is not invalidated by private ownership of the underlying land. The doctrine limits public and private use of tidelands and other shorelands to protect the public's right to use the waters of the state. (Visit the MSRC Web site and search for the State Supreme Court case Caminiti v. Boyle, 107 Wn. 2d 662, 732 P.2d 989)" Haven't dug super deep on this and I'm sure the answer is out there somewhere, but thought I'd ask here just because. What exceptions might there be. For example, I seem to remember Crescent Beach (next to Salt Creek) charges $8 per day to access the privately owned beach. Or is that just the area above the high water mark? Or the signs on Scenic Beach letting people know that the beach beyond is private property? Once again, just the high water mark. Can the public continue on during low tide?

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
IanB
Vegetable Belayer



Joined: 21 Jul 2010
Posts: 1061 | TRs | Pics
Location: gone whuljin'
IanB
Vegetable Belayer
PostWed Aug 23, 2017 9:54 am 
To learn more about this, the paper by Johnson et al. linked on the DOE's web page is an excellent place to start. The applicability of the PTD in relation to tidelands ownership in Washington State has not yet been legally resolved. To do so would require a favorable court decision which would invariably be appealed to the Washington State supreme court. (The PTD would seem to apply to WA tidelands, and the WA supreme court has established that the PTD is an accepted body of law in WA in relation to other cases, but has not yet done so on this issue.) In its narrowest interpretation, the PTD would ensure the right of passage over navigable waterways of the state and the lands there under. If you can paddle a kayak within inches of the shore at high tide, you should be able to at least walk over that same area - but not necessarily picnic there, beachcomb, or even (strictly) to pause and admire the view. And certainly not taking any resources, like clams. A broader interpretation would allow any non-destructive and respectful use, similar to what would be allowed in other public spaces. But as it stands, tidelands owners possess a deed that until proven otherwise grants them exclusive ownership, and they are within their rights to tell you that you are trespassing. And those deeds vary as to how far down the beach they were written to include, sometimes all the way to extreme low water. Until this is resolved by the courts, I will continue to walk these beaches respectfully - which means not staring into homes, only picnicking on secluded stretches (where one would want to stop and sit anyway), and always picking up at least a token amount of garbage along the way in thanks. (One time a friend and I hauled out 45 lbs.) Almost everyone (homeowners included) that I've met on nearly 200 miles of West Sound beaches has been both friendly and welcoming. No more than 5 times over the years have I been called out by cranky owners. (And two of them were just this spring on a walk from Guillemot Cove to Seabeck.) Its made me conclude that some people are just uptight and looking to take offense, be it on a beach or on a sidewalk. I just smile apologetically, pretend I didn't know better, and continue on my way. All told, the positive interactions have so enormously outweighed the negative that it has boosted my confidence in peoples' generally good nature, and only encouraged me to continue these walks.

"Forget gaining a little knowledge about a lot and strive to learn a lot about a little." - Harvey Manning
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Brian Curtis
Trail Blazer/HiLaker



Joined: 16 Dec 2001
Posts: 1696 | TRs | Pics
Location: Silverdale, WA
Brian Curtis
Trail Blazer/HiLaker
PostWed Aug 23, 2017 12:05 pm 
As a waterfront landowner on Hood Canal this topic is of interest to me. I actually thought we only owned to mean high tide until I saw alpendave's recent thread about finding a place to land their kayak. I went to the county's website and discovered we actually own the tideland. You'd think I would know what land we own. We walk up and down the beach all the time and fortunately I've never had anything but positive interactions with my neighbors. I certainly don't mind people walking across our beach. But there can be downsides. Just this morning one of our neighbors reported that someone came up off the beach and stole an iPad off their deck. Someone carved a heart with their initials on one of our trees. That didn't actually bother me, but I imagine it would if it were a regular occurrence. alpendave, I know it doesn't do you much good, but you are always welcome to land on our beach. IanB, it sounds like you walk the beaches of West Sound a lot. If you need beach access to complete anything in the Bangor area let me know.

that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
mike
Member
Member


Joined: 09 Jul 2004
Posts: 6389 | TRs | Pics
Location: SJIsl
mike
Member
PostWed Aug 23, 2017 1:27 pm 
I wish people could be more respectful. A friend owns waterfront on Henry Island which includes the only small beach along that shore. It has become a kayaker's toilet. down.gif

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Alpendave
Member
Member


Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 863 | TRs | Pics
Alpendave
Member
PostWed Aug 23, 2017 1:59 pm 
Hey thanks Brian👍. One of our fiends who live in the old blue Norwegian homestead was the person I first heard of this from. Then there was an interesting ruling in California (not Washington of course) where a wealthy beachfront owner lost the legal battle to keep recreationalists from using his beach. I can definitely see both sides. I agree with Ian's approach. Be respectful and help'em out a little. Private property damage and theft are a valid counter argument to public usage I'd have to say. And I do believe the owners should be able to implement some rules as to how their beach is used.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Alpendave
Member
Member


Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 863 | TRs | Pics
Alpendave
Member
PostWed Aug 30, 2017 11:36 am 
Hey Brian, not sure if you've noticed, but there have been some harbor Porpoises hanging out in the channel between our neighborhood and Dabob Peninsula the past few days.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Brian Curtis
Trail Blazer/HiLaker



Joined: 16 Dec 2001
Posts: 1696 | TRs | Pics
Location: Silverdale, WA
Brian Curtis
Trail Blazer/HiLaker
PostWed Aug 30, 2017 3:57 pm 
I haven't seen them, but a couple days ago I talked to someone on the beach who had. Thanks for the heads up!

that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Schroder
Member
Member


Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 6696 | TRs | Pics
Location: on the beach
Schroder
Member
PostWed Aug 30, 2017 9:32 pm 
This is a big issue on Whidbey Island where I live. Most of the west side of the island North of Fort Casey is State tideland and most of the east side is private. I live in a densely populated beach development on the east side and a few of my neighbors are very up tight about "outsiders" walking the beach in front of their homes. We all have deeds to the tidelands down to the extreme low water mark. I didn't see it as an issue until recently when they constructed public access to the water at the end of the beach. Now we're getting large groups of people, particularly on weekends, with uncontrolled dogs running into peoples yards. There have been a couple of confrontations involving the Sheriff. I've had people walking in from the street, down my driveway, and through my yard to access the beach.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Alpendave
Member
Member


Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 863 | TRs | Pics
Alpendave
Member
PostWed Aug 30, 2017 10:22 pm 
Schroder wrote:
I've had people walking in from the street, down my driveway, and through my yard to access the beach.
This from the link I included: "The Public Trust Doctrine does not allow the public to trespass over privately owned uplands to access the tidelands. It does, however, protect public use of navigable water bodies below the ordinary high water mark." Having people presumptuously traipse through my property uninvited would be maddening.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Token Civilian
Member
Member


Joined: 02 Sep 2010
Posts: 590 | TRs | Pics
Token Civilian
Member
PostThu Aug 31, 2017 12:25 pm 
Quote:
This from the link I included: "The Public Trust Doctrine does not allow the public to trespass over privately owned uplands to access the tidelands. It does, however, protect public use of navigable water bodies below the ordinary high water mark." Having people presumptuously traipse through my property uninvited would be maddening.
Once that land isn't covered by navigable waters (e.g. low tide), and if the State has in fact sold it (the deed is to the extreme low tide line), it's no different than any other land. That's my long ago title examiner view of the matter. If the deed is only down to only the high tide mark....that's entirely a different matter. Now, I'm sure the legislature of 9, aka the State Supreme Court, could retroactively try to undo that sale of the tidelands. But that would seem to butt up against that pesky takings clause since folks who own tideland to the low tide line have a deed from the State of Washington. Now, if as a matter of public policy the powers that be decide that tidelands below the high tide line should be publicly owned, so be it. But do it per the law and pay full and fair market prices. As for now, private property is private property, period. Now, get off my lawn....er, beach, and back into that kayak or I'll unleash the hounds. wink.gif

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Alpendave
Member
Member


Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 863 | TRs | Pics
Alpendave
Member
PostThu Aug 31, 2017 1:43 pm 
Any maps that would show where the law applies?

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Schroder
Member
Member


Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 6696 | TRs | Pics
Location: on the beach
Schroder
Member
PostFri Sep 01, 2017 9:01 am 
Department of Ecology has maps here: https://fortress.wa.gov/ecy/coastalatlas/ This takes you directly to the map: Public Shorelines Here's one that has been developed locally for Whidbey Island for a trails project: https://www.islandcountywa.gov/PublicWorks/Roads/Transportation-Planning/Documents/Issues%20maps.pdf

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
   All times are GMT - 8 Hours
 Reply to topic
Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > Public Trust Doctrine and Tidelands Access
  Happy Birthday speyguy, Bandanabraids!
Jump to:   
Search this topic:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum