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Ski
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PostThu Aug 24, 2017 8:19 pm 
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'Environmental Nightmare' After Thousands Of Atlantic Salmon Escape Fish Farm - NPR 08/24/17

Courtney Flatt and John Ryan, quoting Kurt Beardslee of Wild Fish Conservancy Northwest wrote:
"The Atlantic salmon bring with them pollution, virus and parasite amplification, and all that harms Pacific salmon and our waters of Washington," Beardslee said.

Beardslee said this event should be of concern especially because the same company, Cooke Aquaculture, is proposing a larger Atlantic salmon net pen in the Strait of San Juan de Fuca.

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Please go fishing, Washington state says after farmed Atlantic salmon escape broken net - Seattle Times 08/22/17

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Thursday, August 24, 2017 17:39 PDT *

WDFW NEWS RELEASE

WDFW asks anglers to report their Atlantic salmon catch online


OLYMPIA The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) is encouraging anglers who catch Atlantic salmon that escaped from a salmon farm near the San Juan Islands last Saturday to report their catch online.

Although anglers are not required to log Atlantic salmon on their catch record cards, state fish managers are requesting anglers report their catch online in an effort to track fish being caught.

The form for reporting can be found online at http://wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/salmon/atlantic_salmon_catch.php.

"We're hoping to track how many Atlantic salmon have been recovered by sport anglers and how far those fish have dispersed," said Ron Warren, head of WDFW's fish program. "If you've caught one of these fish over the last few days, or if you catch one in the near future, please let us know."

Warren noted the escaped Atlantic salmon are 8 to 10 pounds in size and are safe for people to eat.

WDFW also is deploying additional employees to assist with creel checks in the Bellingham Bay area to help collect data on encounters with Atlantic salmon.

Cooke Aquaculture notified the department of a net pen failure Aug. 19 that allowed Atlantic salmon to escape from the company's Cypress Island location. The net pen held 305,000 salmon but the number of escaped Atlantic salmon is still undetermined.

The department is working with Cooke and other state agencies to determine the number of fish that actually escaped.

WDFW is responsible for monitoring fish diseases and shares regulatory authority for net pen operations with several other agencies, local governments and tribes.

Anglers must have a current fishing license and must also observe gear regulations identified in the 2017-18 sport fishing rules pamphlet.

There is no size or catch limit on Atlantic salmon. However, anglers may only fish for Atlantic salmon in marine waters that are already open to fishing for Pacific salmon or freshwater areas open to fishing for trout or Pacific salmon. Anglers also must stop fishing for Atlantic salmon once they've caught their daily limit of Pacific salmon in marine waters or their daily limit of trout or Pacific salmon in freshwater.

Persons with disabilities who need to receive this information in an alternative format or who need reasonable accommodations to participate in WDFW-sponsored public meetings or other activities may contact Dolores Noyes by phone (360-902-2349), TTY (360-902-2207), or email (dolores.noyes@dfw.wa.gov). For more information, see http://wdfw.wa.gov/accessibility/reasonable_request.html.

-WDFW-

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Pyrites
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PostThu Aug 24, 2017 11:52 pm 
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I am not worried about one problem other sources have postulated. WA State spent some effort, and the Provincial and Federal governments each spent a great deal of effort to establish Atlantic salmon on the Pacific coast. Large efforts resulted in no, or very few fish ever returning.

Our northern neighbors also tried to establish lobster. Not sure I'm happy that failed, too.
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PostFri Aug 25, 2017 9:29 am 
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Pyrites wrote:
I am not worried about one problem other sources have postulated. WA State spent some effort, and the Provincial and Federal governments each spent a great deal of effort to establish Atlantic salmon on the Pacific coast. Large efforts resulted in no, or very few fish ever returning.

Our northern neighbors also tried to establish lobster. Not sure I'm happy that failed, too.

Yes, I was wondering about likely  "return rates"  for these fish.  I have a friend in WDFW who has  noted  that return rates even for local native  species raised in hatcheries are not nearly like those of wild-born fish. Regardless this is not a good thing...

Having grown up on the  coast of northern  MA I'm no stranger to lobster. I enjoy having one on some of my  trips back  to  visit family,  but frankly  we have it way  better here with  the Dungeness Crab, except for the  fact that the season is shorter.
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PostFri Aug 25, 2017 9:30 am 
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Where would be a good coastal spot to try to catch some of these close to Seattle? Whidbey?
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PostFri Aug 25, 2017 9:33 am 
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So much time and energy and resources wasted on the notion that animals or plants are 'unnatural'  because of how they arrived. Everything which happens is fundamentally natural and the dichotomy is only an artificial one.

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PostFri Aug 25, 2017 9:58 am 
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Pyrites wrote:
I am not worried about one problem other sources have postulated.

I'm not a fisheries biologist and I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on this, but from what I understand:

- hatchery fish do not interbreed with native fish stocks * edit: should be farm-raised Atlantic Salmon

- hatchery (farm-raised) fish do not start migrating up the rivers of Puget Sound or the Olympic Peninsula * edit: should be farm-raised Atlantic Salmon

- hatchery (farm-raised) fish do get weird diseases and parasites (lice) that can be transmitted to wild fish stocks. * edit: should be farm-raised Atlantic Salmon

In the larger picture:

What they are feeding the farm-raised fish is "fish pellets", which are made of ground-up fish that they're mining out of the North Pacific ocean at an unsustainable rate, leaving less food fish stocks for native anadromous fish.

Anybody who tries to tell you that this is a sustainable industry over the long term is either misinformed or a liar.

Friends don't let friends eat farm-raised fish.

(Or shrimp, which is an entirely different can of worms, but has had greater detrimental socio-economic impacts on local populations in southeast Asia.)

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PostFri Aug 25, 2017 10:02 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
So much time and energy and resources wasted on the notion that animals or plants are 'unnatural'  because of how they arrived. Everything which happens is fundamentally natural and the dichotomy is only an artificial one.

It's pretty clear from that statement that you're completely clueless about the detrimental impacts of non-indigenous flora and fauna being introduced into ecosystems.
But that's okay... everything's good in the land of AynRandia if everybody's making a buck, right? dizzy.gif

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AlpineRose
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PostFri Aug 25, 2017 10:19 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
So much time and energy and resources wasted on the notion that animals or plants are 'unnatural'  because of how they arrived. Everything which happens is fundamentally natural and the dichotomy is only an artificial one.

Good lord.  You desperately need some understanding of science, ecology, and evolution.  Invasives, both plant and animal, can be incredibly destructive to local biomes and ecosystems.  The complex web of life in an area is made up of thousands of interrelationships of species evolved specifically for that habitat.  Invasives can disrupt those relationships in a heartbeat (geologically speaking).

This kind of muddled thinking seems to support abdicating our responsibility to mitigate the destructive forces we have unleashed.  In effect, sit back and do nothing.
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iron
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PostFri Aug 25, 2017 10:32 am 
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https://www.oursound-oursalmon.org/sign-the-petition#petition

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PostFri Aug 25, 2017 10:51 am 
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Ski wrote:
It's pretty clear from that statement that you're completely clueless about the detrimental impacts of non-indigenous flora and fauna being introduced into ecosystems.
But that's okay... everything's good in the land of AynRandia if everybody's making a buck, right? dizzy.gif

Is it pretty clear, really?

Disagreement on a value judgement means I must somehow not have heard all the other arguments, because knowing them somehow forces you to make a particular value judgement?

Thus, if I disagree I must be 'clueless' about impacts.

No, I disagree they are a problem because ecosystems continually change anyway. The static condition of any ecosystem at any given time is a snapshot, not a mandate.

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PostFri Aug 25, 2017 10:51 am 
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Ski wrote:
- hatchery fish do not interbreed with native fish stocks

Hatchery fish CERTAINLY DO interbred with native fish stocks, this is one of the primary ways that hatcheries reduce the number and health of wild fish.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fish-hatchery-silverhead-salmon-genetics/
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PostFri Aug 25, 2017 10:53 am 
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AlpineRose wrote:
Good lord.  You desperately need some understanding of science, ecology, and evolution.  Invasives, both plant and animal, can be incredibly destructive to local biomes and ecosystems.  The complex web of life in an area is made up of thousands of interrelationships of species evolved specifically for that habitat.  Invasives can disrupt those relationships in a heartbeat (geologically speaking).

This kind of muddled thinking seems to support abdicating our responsibility to mitigate the destructive forces we have unleashed.  In effect, sit back and do nothing.

I'll ask you the same thing..why does disagreement on a value judgement indicate a lack of understanding of what you note. Does knowledge of these things force a set of values onto the knower?

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PostFri Aug 25, 2017 11:44 am 
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Jaberwock wrote:
Hatchery fish CERTAINLY DO interbred with native fish stocks, this is one of the primary ways that hatcheries reduce the number and health of wild fish.

Thanks. You'll note in my post above I made I tried to make it clear that I'm not a fisheries biologist, and this is one of those subjects where there are conflicting opinions from different sources regarding farm-raised fish interbreeding with wild stocks and taking up residence in local rivers.

MtnGoat wrote:
"...why does disagreement on a value judgement..."

Probably because your "value judgement" shows a complete disregard for maintaining the integrity of ecosystems.

Maybe this is no big deal for you if you're living in your little bubble.

It is a huge problem globally. It costs a lot of money. It endangers endemic life forms both plant and animal. It displaces native flora and fauna.

Indeed, ecosystems do evolve over time - over millennia and/or eons.
Man's impact on the planet during the last half-dozen centuries (in regard to introducing non-native species globally) has caused all kinds of problems.

How many need to be listed for you to see the larger picture?
Mongooses in Hawaii
Scotch Broom introduced into California to control erosion on cut-banks that's now migrated all the way out to the Pacific Coast via I-5 and Hwy 101.
Canada Thistle (Cirsium Arvense) brought over from Europe that has invaded the interior core of Olympic National Park.
Himalaya Blackberry (Rubus Procerus or R. Discolor), brought onto the North American continent about 1880 and since then has crowded out thousands (if not millions) of acres of what was indigenous flora.
Feral Hogs in Texas and Louisiana (mentioned in the "MLH break-in" thread this morning.)
Virginia Opossums and Eastern Gray Squirrels brought up into the Pacific Northwest by loggers in the 1920s as a food source that have now displaced populations of native Douglas Squirrels and other indigenous species.
English Starlings brought over and released in Central Park in New York City in the 1850s that proliferated and cost millions of dollars in damage to farm crops in the Midwest and are now all the way out to Lake Quinault.
Those itty-bitty teeny-tiny ants that were introduced into the Hawaiian Islands, stowaways in wooden shipping crates from India, that are clear up on the penthouse floor of the Ilikai Hotel in downtown Honolulu.
Japanese Knotweed that's taken up residence along riverine corridors and crowds out native vegetation.

How many more examples do you need?

While the "static" condition of a landscape may be a snapshot, that "snapshot" (lacking interference with or alteration of) can be of a duration of millions of years.
I have witnessed radical changes in local ecosystems during my lifetime; Scotch Broom being probably the best example - it was fairly uncommon here when I was young - but proliferated after the construction of Interstate 5.

I suppose, however, if you're more concerned about commerce and industry, and have a complete disregard for "nature" in its natural state, and aren't the least bit concerned about the preservation and protection of natural systems, all of this inter-mingling of species is okay.

If, on the other hand, you care more than a tinker's damn about making an effort to keep the "wild" in wilderness for future generations, you should be outraged.

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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PostFri Aug 25, 2017 11:54 am 
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Nylon  is a natural  fiber too, since it's  created by  creatures  that evolved on the earth from  ingredients found on the earth. This is  such a meaningless and lexical line of argument. Yes, of course it's a value judgment as to whether native species and biodiversity on a global  scale is important. With a long and complex argument as to  why decreasing  said diversity and rapidly changing food webs is  problematic.

The fact of the  matter is that  humans  can reason  about the impacts  of their  introductions and do something about these "natural"  events such  as spills of large numbers of non-native fish.

Ski - yes, introduced diseases also strike me as a more  likely to  be significant problem than  that they're going to muscle out the natives on their own  turf in the way of eastern  brook  trout in mountain  rivers and  lakes.
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PostFri Aug 25, 2017 12:18 pm 
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Jaberwock wrote:
Ski wrote:
- hatchery fish do not interbreed with native fish stocks

Hatchery fish CERTAINLY DO interbred with native fish stocks, this is one of the primary ways that hatcheries reduce the number and health of wild fish.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fish-hatchery-silverhead-salmon-genetics/

Jaberwock:
My mistake in the first post there. I said "Hatchery fish".
Should have been "farm-raised fish", in particular Atlantic Salmon, a different sub-species.

Seems we're confusing one with the other here. Two different deals.

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