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zephyr aka friendly hiker
Joined: 21 Jun 2009 Posts: 3370 | TRs | Pics Location: West Seattle |
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zephyr
aka friendly hiker
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Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:33 am
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Ski wrote: | Grannyhiker, can you please provide a name and address for a contact person so I can forward a rant their way on this one? Thanks. |
Let's not derail the Eagle Creek Fire thread. Sorry I brought up the subject. Good Grief.
Please read the author's proposal where he explains his reasoning and ideas before you launch off into a position. Both pcg and Ski can direct their comments here and also to the Trail Keepers of Oregon. The author of the earlier article on the Gorge fire damage is Tom Kloster, the President of TKO. Here's a link to the Board of TKO and his contact info. He writes the WyEast Blog. Thanks, ~z
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Ski ><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 12829 | TRs | Pics Location: tacoma |
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Ski
><((((°>
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Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:42 am
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Ski, in the "Eagle Creek Fire" thread wrote: | re: pcg's comment just above about the Oneonta falls logjam:
Any man who's been steelhead fishing on a river knows logjams are killers. When they're wet they're slipperier than deerguts on a doorknob. If you slip and fall you could be impaled or drowned. What part of that is difficult to understand?
One of the biggest mistakes made in developing the western US was the systematic removal of logjams from major rivers by the United States Army Corps of Engineers. The Chehalis river was one of its many targets- the second largest watershed in the State of Washington (after the Columbia.) Ask anybody you know who lives in Porter or Malone how many times a year the Chehalis floods the valley now.
The USFS, NPS, and other public lands management agencies are spending millions of dollars constructing man-made logjams in streams all over the place to restore fish habitat and help control erosion and flooding.
Is this guy who's pushing for the removal of this logjam sniffing glue? This is the stupidest idea I've heard all week (but then, I've been ignoring the news from Washington DC.)
Leave the log jam alone. Stop climbing over it if you don't want to get killed.
The idea of removing the log jam so it's safe for pregnant women and their small children to go see the falls makes almost as much sense and blowing up the "Big Four" ice caves with dynamite to make them "safe".
Dumb. Dumb. Dumb.
Grannyhiker, can you please provide a name and address for a contact person so I can forward a rant their way on this one? Thanks. |
Thanks, zephyr.
I did read all the way through his proposals, and after sleeping on it I still think it's nutty to propose removing the logjam for the reasons he cites.
Following that train of logic, we'd be building stairways with handrails up to the summit of Mt. Rainier.
Makes no sense at all, and I don't think you're going to find any fisheries biologist or hydrologist who's going to say it's a good idea.
Leave logjams alone. They serve a purpose.
If you venture out onto wet logjams, you are taking the risk of being seriously injured or killed.
If you want to get injured or killed, just go wander around on the freeway in the middle of the night - no reason to have to drive to some remote destination up in the Columbia Gorge.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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zephyr aka friendly hiker
Joined: 21 Jun 2009 Posts: 3370 | TRs | Pics Location: West Seattle |
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zephyr
aka friendly hiker
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Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:02 am
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Ski wrote: | Thanks, zephyr.
I did read all the way through his proposals, and after sleeping on it I still think it's nutty to propose removing the logjam for the reasons he cites.
Following that train of logic, we'd be building stairways with handrails up to the summit of Mt. Rainier.
Makes no sense at all, and I don't think you're going to find any fisheries biologist or hydrologist who's going to say it's a good idea.
Leave logjams alone. They serve a purpose.
If you venture out onto wet logjams, you are taking the risk of being seriously injured or killed. |
Thanks, Ski. I appreciate it.
And I do agree about wet logjams being very dangerous. This is a very similar situation to the Big Four Ice Caves where you have an "attractive nuisance" sort of. I read his proposal and thought it was a good idea at first glance. Didn't realize it was such a hot button. ~z
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Ski ><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 12829 | TRs | Pics Location: tacoma |
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Ski
><((((°>
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Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:13 am
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One of these days, when you've got the time and the inclination to listen to another one of my maniacal diatribes, let me tell you all about the cabin my father built up on the Nisqually, and our wonderful upstream neighbors: Frank Knowles, who dynamited the logjams along the river, and Don Kist, who used heavy equipment to drag the large woody debris off the gravel bars (ostensibly so that he could mill lumber out of it), which resulted in accelerating the process of the river eroding the riverbanks, ultimately contributing to the loss of dozens of acres of real estate on the adjoining downstream parcels.
I'd take a selfie and post it here for you, but I can't focus the camera when I'm foaming at the mouth.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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RumiDude Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009 Posts: 3589 | TRs | Pics Location: Port Angeles |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:19 am
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I know I am preaching to the choir here, but this idea of just sawing out a logjam is naive at best. Cutting logs is dangerous. Cutting logs in a logjam is crazy dangerous.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Ski ><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 12829 | TRs | Pics Location: tacoma |
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Ski
><((((°>
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Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:27 am
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Well, they could always do what the four chuckleheads camped right upstream from me several years ago tried to do up on the Queets: just set the log jam on fire!
Fortunately Mike Larsen, the last LEO up there who actually patrolled up the trail, just happened to wander up there that afternoon and wrote them up (for several other offenses) after listening to my eyewitness report.
Or just blow it out with dynamite, like Frank Knowles did to the logjam just opposite the mouth of Tanwax Creek on the Nisqually (along with the beaver dam in a side channel.)
This is a nutty idea.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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zephyr aka friendly hiker
Joined: 21 Jun 2009 Posts: 3370 | TRs | Pics Location: West Seattle |
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zephyr
aka friendly hiker
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Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:34 am
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For the record: I am not supporting the proposal to cut out the logjam. At the time I read it on the WyEast blog it sounded like a good idea. But I have come to realize that this is a situation very much like the Big Four Ice Caves. It's a natural wonder that maybe most folks--especially less able or less skilled should avoid for safety reasons. ~z
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treeswarper Alleged Sockpuppet!
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 11276 | TRs | Pics Location: Don't move here |
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:01 pm
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RumiDude wrote: | I know I am preaching to the choir here, but this idea of just sawing out a logjam is naive at best. Cutting logs is dangerous. Cutting logs in a logjam is crazy dangerous.
Rumi |
Here's the guys that did it. Light on their toes and using peaveys. I think there is some blasting too.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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zephyr aka friendly hiker
Joined: 21 Jun 2009 Posts: 3370 | TRs | Pics Location: West Seattle |
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zephyr
aka friendly hiker
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Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:28 pm
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That's some amazing footage treeswarper. Those guys were very skillful in breaking up the jams and herding those logs downriver. I kept wondering if they ever didn't get off the log fast enough and started going downstream in the rapids. That could be problematic in some stretches of the river. They had some super boat-handling skills too. Everyone was all alert, quick-witted and all on deck. Thanks for posting that. ~z
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Ski ><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 12829 | TRs | Pics Location: tacoma |
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Ski
><((((°>
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Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:29 pm
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^ Looks like a way to get killed real easily. Clearly not a good choice of occupation for those lacking a good sense of balance!
Some of those peaveys appear to have handles five or six feet long. Why do the ones made in the current era have such short handles?!?!
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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RumiDude Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009 Posts: 3589 | TRs | Pics Location: Port Angeles |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:14 pm
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treeswarper wrote: | RumiDude wrote: | I know I am preaching to the choir here, but this idea of just sawing out a logjam is naive at best. Cutting logs is dangerous. Cutting logs in a logjam is crazy dangerous.
Rumi |
Here's the guys that did it. Light on their toes and using peaveys. I think there is some blasting too. |
Not to downplay their skill, but I think it is one thing to clear a log jam of logs in a swiftly moving river like that and the stream we see in the photos of Oneonta Gorge. Also those logs were delimbed and roughly the same length and size, unlike the logs in Oneonta Gorge which are trees with limbs, stabs, rootballs, of all different shapes, lengths, and sizes in a narrow gorge.
Again, I respect the skill and ingenuity displayed by those fellows but the comparison to what we are looking at in Oneonta Gorge is apples and oranges, IMO. And yea, a little dynamite judiciously placed can be a big help sometimes.
Anyway, clearing out the logjam in Oneonta Gorge is not an easy task.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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payslee Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2013 Posts: 94 | TRs | Pics Location: Oregon |
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payslee
Member
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Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:13 am
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The fire burned really hot and thorough in the Oneonta Watershed, and now the rains have come.
Even if they took out this log jam (which I don't advocate), the creek is likely to send down a whole new and even larger delivery of giant dead trees into the canyon this winter.
Tom has a lot of very strong opinions and relishes belittling people who disagree with him, so he'll probably enjoy your rants.
If folks want to help logging out trails next summer, there will be plenty of work to go around, and for years to come. But drainages collect fallen trees, it's what they do...
Your mileage may vary.
-payslee
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crazyhiker Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2011 Posts: 245 | TRs | Pics
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lol @ wanting to remove the logjam. Good lord. Stupid. That's a weak ass logjam anyhow.
Here's one I used to climb over on the mashel river:
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Ski ><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 12829 | TRs | Pics Location: tacoma |
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Ski
><((((°>
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Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:20 am
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payslee wrote: | "...the creek is likely to send down a whole new and even larger delivery of giant dead trees into the canyon this winter." |
^ the crux of it right there. after about four centuries of mucking around with rivers all over the continent, they've finally figured out the best thing to do is nothing at all - rivers will do what they want to do.
logjams are dynamic structures that evolve from year to year and play an important role in riparian ecosystems.
fooling around with them is a fool's errand.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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moonspots Happy Curmudgeon
Joined: 03 Feb 2007 Posts: 2456 | TRs | Pics Location: North Dakota |
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moonspots
Happy Curmudgeon
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Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:35 am
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Ski wrote: | ^ Looks like a way to get killed real easily. Clearly not a good choice of occupation for those lacking a good sense of balance! |
Sometimes a Great Notion
"Out, OUT you demons of Stupidity"! - St Dogbert, patron Saint of Technology
"Out, OUT you demons of Stupidity"! - St Dogbert, patron Saint of Technology
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