Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > Stunted Trout in Alpine Lakes
 Reply to topic
Previous :: Next Topic
Author Message
SingleShot
Member
Member


Joined: 20 Sep 2010
Posts: 119 | TRs | Pics
SingleShot
Member
PostFri Oct 13, 2017 12:21 pm 
Brown trout were stocked in Rock because it had a stunted population of EB,s and it had a previous history of brown stocking. The agreement WDFW has with federal agencies allows for previous history stocking on USFS land. A SEPA (State Environmental Policy Act) is required for an introduction of a new fish species into state waters. This SEPA is published and other state, federal agencies, or organizations, can inquire about possible harmful actions of the introduction. The ESA has magnified potential downstream problems with browns. Under Section 7, the concern is these fish, through competition, potential spawning, will harm ESA listed fish and slow their recovery. In 2009, I made a proposal to use tiger trout in Merritt Lake, Chelan County to prey on stunted brook trout. These fish are a sterile cross between brown trout and brook trout. The limit on trout, in this lake, had been raised to 16 fish years before in an attempt to deal with the stunting problem. The Wenatchee National Forest Fish Supervisor, the Yakima Nation, and the local state Wildlife Commissioner all supported the plan. Icicle Outfitters offered to take the fish in by horseback. We did a population survey, took otoliths for aging, and wrote the SEPA for the agency. Everything looked good. Here is the story The following spring, after the WDFW Regional bio (Ephrata) had the Section 7 talks with the U.S. Fish & Wildlife, I received a call from the boss man in Olympia. He said he was sorry but the project couldn't go forward. The USFWS raised concerns about downstream issues and the WDFW was concerned they might lose some funding if they planted browns, or tiger trout, in lakes that had outlets to bull trout waters. I said I was disappointed but I asked if he knew that Fish Lake, a few miles from Lake Wenatchee, had been planted with 30,000 brown fingerlings 2 weeks previously? I added, the outlet drains to the Wenatchee River where you are tracking tagged bull trout! What I got was an "Oh S--T reply. He hadn't realized the Regional bio had his own ideas about browns. The WDFW is still stocking browns, and tiger trout, in waters that drain to bull trout habitat. They leave it to the discretion of the local bios. Currently, we are proposing a new apex predator for stunted lakes. One that is native and is already downstream.

WDFW Volunteer Award recipient
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Jim Mighell
Fish Rsrch Biologist



Joined: 26 Oct 2011
Posts: 23 | TRs | Pics
Jim Mighell
Fish Rsrch Biologist
PostFri Oct 13, 2017 1:38 pm 
Just a mention of explosives: Back in the 50's, California used explosives very effectively, and can be useful for controlling excessive populations, thus, leaving fewer to use the available food, and grow to more exciting sizes.

Tacoma native; gave up hockey career for Fisheries Biology; 50 yrs of planting high lakes with trout, including research therein; mainly, stock comparisons, hybridization, and population dynamics.
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Alpendave
Member
Member


Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 863 | TRs | Pics
Alpendave
Member
PostSat Nov 25, 2017 6:20 pm 
What about tiger muskies? Usually sterile and very voracious eaters.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Brian Curtis
Trail Blazer/HiLaker



Joined: 16 Dec 2001
Posts: 1696 | TRs | Pics
Location: Silverdale, WA
Brian Curtis
Trail Blazer/HiLaker
PostSat Nov 25, 2017 10:08 pm 
alpendave wrote:
What about tiger muskies? Usually sterile and very voracious eaters.
There is an ongoing experiment currently underway with tiger muskies and they have been used with some very positive success in Idaho. Initial results in the WA experiment were quite promising as the size of the eastern brook increased and invertebrate populations rebounded. But, as typical these top predator experiments, the tiger muskies reached a size where they stopped targeting smaller fish and moved their diet to larger fish. The eastern brook remain stunted, but the tiger muskies are huge. Tiger muskies were re-stocked and the cycle repeated itself with the lake again improving, but never fully recovering. This pattern has been observed with other predators such as brown trout and bull trout (in Idaho). From an angler's perspective the fishing certainly has improved with a chance to catch very large fish. But from a biological perspective, not enough of the EB are generally removed by the predator species to allow native species to fully recover. Idaho is now experimenting with YY male EB that produce all-male offspring when they spawn in the wild. If you keep stocking the YY EB the entire population of the lake will eventually become male and the population will die out. If this proves successful it could be a game changer.

that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Juan del Bosque
Member
Member


Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 20 | TRs | Pics
Location: West Seattle
Juan del Bosque
Member
PostSun Nov 26, 2017 1:51 pm 
To me it's like blackberries, why fight it? Nature (including man) is taking her course. Certain introduced species enjoy temporary advantages, and then nature rebalaces. Meanwhile, like blackberries, brook trout are quite tasty! I was hiking on Mt. Washington and I ran into this woman who was pulling up all these blooming foxglove. I avoid confrontation, but I wanted to point out to her that pollinators--including hummingbirds--must be getting a big boost, judging by the fertilization rate and seed spread of this "alien". I would almost say that these pollinators are counting on it. Then, on other parts of Mt. Washington, foxglove just can't seem to compete with the native goatsbeard, which like foxglove has a spectacular inflorescence.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Brian Curtis
Trail Blazer/HiLaker



Joined: 16 Dec 2001
Posts: 1696 | TRs | Pics
Location: Silverdale, WA
Brian Curtis
Trail Blazer/HiLaker
PostMon Nov 27, 2017 7:04 am 
Juan del Bosque wrote:
To me it's like blackberries, why fight it? Nature (including man) is taking her course. Certain introduced species enjoy temporary advantages, and then nature rebalaces. Meanwhile, like blackberries, brook trout are quite tasty!
You, apparently, don't have blackberries in your yard? I've spent a lot of time fighting blackberries. Otherwise I wouldn't have much of a yard and I far prefer the raspberries we have planted to the blackberries that would take over, if allowed.

that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Juan del Bosque
Member
Member


Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 20 | TRs | Pics
Location: West Seattle
Juan del Bosque
Member
PostMon Nov 27, 2017 8:41 pm 
Brian Curtis wrote:
You, apparently, don't have blackberries in your yard?
I keep blackberries out of my yard, and I grow raspberries, strawberries, flowering quince fruit, pears, apples, assorted herbs...but all that is my garden, not nature at large. If I want blackberries I go down to the park and pick them in August. Seattle has a no spray policy on them, although they're occasionally dug up for some native planting projects. My yard has always been strictly organic, and I find blackberries are easy to control in comparison to suckers on my apple, various dandelions, edging along concrete, ivy, the list goes on.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Juan del Bosque
Member
Member


Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 20 | TRs | Pics
Location: West Seattle
Juan del Bosque
Member
PostMon Nov 27, 2017 9:08 pm 
Are any of the fish and wildlife gurus out there aware of the extent of osprey participation in high lakes fishing? I've seen them take fish from the Snows (both the Snoqualmie and Enchantment), Hatchet, Wildcat. As far as I know the fish were cutthroat. I would wonder if the osprey population has become intertwined with the high lakes fish population, and if it would be wise to upset that. I think their nests must be close to their forage: it would take too much energy to fly 20 miles from the lowland fishing areas to the high lakes.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Brian Curtis
Trail Blazer/HiLaker



Joined: 16 Dec 2001
Posts: 1696 | TRs | Pics
Location: Silverdale, WA
Brian Curtis
Trail Blazer/HiLaker
PostMon Nov 27, 2017 9:49 pm 
The idea is not to get rid of the fish in the lakes, it is to get rid of overpopulated, stunted fish and then to replace them with non-reproducing fish. The non-reproducing fish would be stocked in numbers that would allow native species that have been knocked back by the stunted fish to recover. I've seen Osprey go for stocked (non-reproducing) rainbow so they don't require a lake full of stunted fish.

that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
mwjake
?



Joined: 26 Sep 2012
Posts: 15 | TRs | Pics
Location: Poulsbo, Wa.
mwjake
?
PostTue Jan 09, 2018 10:05 pm 
Years ago [1942] my dad and I hiked into Wildcat Lake above the end of the Dose road,. We had been up there the previous year and caught some nice brook trout, but this time we noticed they were becoming stunted and noticed many dead fish along the shoreline. As we fished around the lake we came upon several places where we found empty carbide containers and broken glass on the lake bottom. So even way back then people were trying to limit over population of EB by carbide bombing them. It didn't work, the last time I visited the lake was full of stunted fish.

mwjake
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
SwitchbackFisher
Boot buster



Joined: 24 Feb 2018
Posts: 364 | TRs | Pics
Location: Wa
SwitchbackFisher
Boot buster
PostMon Mar 05, 2018 9:02 pm 
I think sterile predators is a good idea. Please don't put Northern Pike in a lake. They can dominate a lake and become somewhat stunted themselves and not nearly as good eating as EB. Tiger musky would be interesting, but they would have to be planted at a large enough size that the stunted EB won't just eat the fry. Also having Tiger Musky bite off lures all the time could get old very quickly. I also find the stocking all male fish to be an interesting idea, would be interested to see how sustainable the program is, and at what point do you quit stocking and start again to keep fish from re populating and stunting a lake. I imagine to get a lake to be a 100% male population or anything close to it would have to be a very long term goal.

I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Pyrites
Member
Member


Joined: 16 Sep 2014
Posts: 1879 | TRs | Pics
Location: South Sound
Pyrites
Member
PostThu Mar 08, 2018 8:05 pm 
mwjake wrote:
Years ago [1942] my dad and I hiked into Wildcat Lake above the end of the Dose road,. We had been up there the previous year and caught some nice brook trout, but this time we noticed they were becoming stunted and noticed many dead fish along the shoreline. As we fished around the lake we came upon several places where we found empty carbide containers and broken glass on the lake bottom. So even way back then people were trying to limit over population of EB by carbide bombing them. It didn't work, the last time I visited the lake was full of stunted fish.
Carbide was cheap. I suspect you were seeing at a case of someone using an alternative source of explosive. ‘A DuPont Spinner’ used to describe using dynamite to kill fish.

Keep Calm and Carry On? Heck No. Stay Excited and Get Outside!
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
timberghost
Member
Member


Joined: 06 Dec 2011
Posts: 1316 | TRs | Pics
timberghost
Member
PostFri Mar 30, 2018 5:22 am 
mwjake wrote:
Years ago [1942] my dad and I hiked into Wildcat Lake above the end of the Dose road,. We had been up there the previous year and caught some nice brook trout, but this time we noticed they were becoming stunted and noticed many dead fish along the shoreline. As we fished around the lake we came upon several places where we found empty carbide containers and broken glass on the lake bottom. So even way back then people were trying to limit over population of EB by carbide bombing them. It didn't work, the last time I visited the lake was full of stunted fish.
Exactly why planting EB is no longer a viable option.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
   All times are GMT - 8 Hours
 Reply to topic
Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > Stunted Trout in Alpine Lakes
  Happy Birthday speyguy, Bandanabraids!
Jump to:   
Search this topic:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum