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RodF
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RodF
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PostFri Sep 22, 2017 8:21 pm 
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drm wrote:
I have no doubt that lawsuits are sometimes filed by those who know they can't win, but have ulterior motives.

Lawsuit Challenges Forest Service wrote:
FSEEE claims the Forest Service violated the Olympic National Forest’s land and resource management plan in issuing the special-use permit.

without citing any statute granting USFS, a land management agency, any authority whatsoever to control airspace (which is regulated by FAA not USFS)... because it has none.

Lawsuit Challenges Forest Service wrote:
The complaint also alleges that the permit approval violated a requirement that the Forest Service give priority to the interests and needs of the general public when deciding whether to issue a permit.

Gosh, isn't that Congress' job?  The ones who are proud to attend every ribbon-cutting ceremony for each refurbished ship that sails out of the Bremerton Naval ship yard or new cafeteria built at any Puget Sound base, and trumpet every thousand new jobs and billion $ they bring home to Puget Sound?  Who is this "general public" the plaintiffs pretend to represent, and demand USFS represent, better than Murray, Cantwell and Kilmer do?

confused.gif either I'm too easily baffled by the depth of the mysteries of "ulterior motives"...
or they're all too obviously clear?

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"of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt" - John Muir
"the wild is not the opposite of cultivated.  It is the opposite of the captivated” - Vandana Shiva
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treeswarper
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PostFri Sep 22, 2017 8:43 pm 
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Ski, on forest plans:  Most of the GP, if not all, is covered by the Northwest Forest Plan.  As far as I know, the GPNF has never followed the matrix guidelines as far as timber harvest is concerned.

Some timber sale purchasers have appealed timber sales for this failure, but it does  not seem to have had any effects on the projects.

And I was wrong.  There has been one clearcut recently on the GPNF and that was done around the Cispus Center.  The trees were infected with root rot--a few trees would blow over every winter so for safety reasons and protection of buildings, powerlines, vehicles, etc.  it was clearcut and replanted.

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RandyHiker
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PostFri Sep 22, 2017 10:03 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:
RandyHiker wrote:
The idea that lawsuits are excessive and a drag on the economy is myth that corporations have spread to further their interests and increase their profits.

Got any citations on that? 

Got any citations to support the myth?
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Ski
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PostFri Sep 22, 2017 10:36 pm 
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^ yeah... see my post just above, Randy.

I'm not part of or affiliated with any "corporation", either.

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Ski
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PostSat Sep 23, 2017 1:37 am 
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quick fix
quick fix

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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RandyHiker
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PostSat Sep 23, 2017 6:08 am 
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Ski wrote:
^ yeah... see my post just above, Randy.

I'm not part of or affiliated with any "corporation", either.

A) I Didn't ask you.
B) I see a bunch of ramblings in your posts about lawsuits but no citations showing that the lawsuits where excessive or causing a drag on the economy.
C) There are certainly slow downs in the timber economy, but these are the result of changes in policy -- the lawsuits by EDF, Sierra Club, etc are these groups forcing the USFS to actually follow the law/policy adopted by Congress.  A great example is the Green Mtn lookout case.  The USFS didn't follow their own rules and policy - and they got sued and It was a big mess.  Had the USFS had followed their own rules however, they might have still been sued, but it would have been far less messy and Congress would not have had to intervene.

So I think that the lawsuits are NOT the problem rather,  that the USFS is trying to wink and nod around the environmental policy adopted by Congress.
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treeswarper
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PostSat Sep 23, 2017 7:22 am 
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RandyHiker
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PostSat Sep 23, 2017 8:10 am 
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Sounds similar to this alternative history

http://www.ozy.com/pov/making-american-history-great-again/76206

On the Wreck of the Exxon Valdez:
“Frivolous lawsuits and the over 10 million gallons of oil that spilled into Prince William Sound placed a major financial strain on Exxon profits, highlighting the need to better balance environmental concerns with the rights of industry.”
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Ski
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PostSat Sep 23, 2017 9:39 am 
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RandyHiker wrote:
A) I Didn't ask you.

So?

Well... it's your choice as to whether or not you accept or ignore fact.

(And I don't recall bringing up the Green Mountain case.... where has that been mentioned here?)

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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RandyHiker
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PostSat Sep 23, 2017 9:57 am 
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Ski wrote:
RandyHiker wrote:
A) I Didn't ask you.

So?

Well... it's your choice as to whether or not you accept or ignore fact.

(And I don't recall bringing up the Green Mountain case.... where has that been mentioned here?)

So you got nothing.

I also think it's pretty funny that you whine about A -- but then contend that the Green Mountain Lookout case isn't related because you didn't mention it earlier in the thread!!
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DIYSteve
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PostSat Sep 23, 2017 10:00 am 
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Ski wrote:
All of this is without litigation

and therefore not directly relevant to the original subject matter of this thread, i.e., citizens suits.

Your rant is about the administrative process, which is a different subject. Do you have proposed solution? Eliminate the public comment process?

ETA:
Ski wrote:
(And I don't recall bringing up the Green Mountain case.... where has that been mentioned here?)

GMLO citizen suit is far more relevant to this thread than your ranting re the administrative process. GMLO case is an example of what I'm talking about: The FS taking action without a competent record and findings supported by the same.
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Ski
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PostSat Sep 23, 2017 10:08 am 
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who's whining?
you asked a question. I answered it. sorry you don't like the answer because it doesn't jibe with your belief system. I get it.

Steve, generally the litigation followed the process I outlined above. You might want to call up to Randle (360 497 1100) and have them add you to their mailing list and follow along with the process as it develops.
No, my rant's not about the administrative process at all, which I'm kinda-sorta familiar with.

Sorry guys, you got no "gotcha" here.  (/sound klaxonhorn.wav )

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"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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DIYSteve
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PostSat Sep 23, 2017 10:12 am 
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Ski wrote:
Steve, generally the litigation followed the process I outlined above.

I didn't see anything in your post about the litigation process. Your rant sorta describes -- in an incomplete and biased manner -- the administrative process. The OP is about the completely silly idea of resolving citizen suits with baseball arbitration.

ETA: Okay, the last part of your post mentions litigation, but it does not describe the "process" (your word) of litigation. It's just a vague rant about delays resulting after commencement of litigation to review the administrative action and supporting record. I'll say it again: When the USFS does its job by compiling a competent record and making supportable findings, those citizen suits are not commenced or they are summarily dismissed, and thus there is no or little delay. It doesn't take rocket scientists and brain surgeons to compile a record and findings that passes the arbitrary and capricious standard.

Ski wrote:
No, my rant's [sic] not about the administrative process at all, which I'm kinda-sorta familiar with.

No, most of your rant is about the administrative process. Your words: "All this without litigation."
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RandyHiker
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PostSat Sep 23, 2017 10:59 am 
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Yah know following the law is very inconvienent for the USFS and timber companies -- I'm sure they would like to resume their 1950's "timber mining" practices.   It's very unfair that "city dwellers" in the 1950's and 1960's worked so damn hard to pass legislation to prevent every single tree of commercial value from being harvested.

But you know -- if those laws hadn't been passed -- all those trees would have been cut by now and there would still be very few jobs in the timber business -- but those timber towns would be surrounded by clear cuts instead of forest.

And the rivers that would drain those clear cuts would have even more silt clogging up the gravel and there would be even fewer wild salmon.

Yep environmental laws sure are a pain #MAGA
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treeswarper
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PostSat Sep 23, 2017 11:34 am 
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DIYSteve wrote:
and thus there is no or little delay.

There's the problem.  I think the lawyer definition of no or little delay is different than that of the forester.  I'll try to find some examples.  There is the Biscuit Fire example to start with.  Perhaps you could explain if that injunction was a little delay.  By the time the delay was over, the timber was pretty much worthless.

Is a little delay a year?  Six months?  Trees don't stop decaying because of an injunction.

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