| Previous :: Next Topic |
| Should maps with routes, especially GPS, be included in Trip Reports |
| Yes |
|
58% |
[ 50 ] |
| No |
|
41% |
[ 36 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 86 |
|
| Author |
Message |
wiki summary
|
Among other thought provoking questions... should you post pictures for the 2018 NWH Calendar?
Reminder: Deadline is Nov 15, 2017!
This wiki summary post can be edited by any member
This wiki summary post can be edited by any member |
| Back to top |
|
 |
FiveNines
Member
Joined: 01 Oct 2010
Posts: 526 | TRs | Pics
|
| RumiDude wrote: | | Regardless, the "secret" places we are talking about are actually public lands, open to all. How and why individual places go viral is a complex phenomena with many factors involved. Photos, names on maps, mentions in TRs and guide books, word of mouth, travel/hiking/adventure forums, etc., all contribute to the "discovery" of the secret places. |
The place is not the secret. Routing information is the secret here. Knowledge is power.
I'll speculate local population growth, facilitated by easier access (gear, gps routes) and slick marketing (facebook, instagram, peak lists) bring crowds. They seem to lack creativity and congregate in predictable spots. Cool lakes. PCT. Peaks on a list. That is a lot of places, but still easy for motivated hiker to get solitude.
| Riverside Laker wrote: | | Dot to dot hiking is akin to dot to dot coloring. It's not adventure, and it's not art. |
Well said.
|
| Back to top |
 
|
|
Cyclopath
Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 7716 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle |
|
Cyclopath
Faster than light
|
 Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:49 pm |
|
|
| joker wrote: | | I voted "no." To be clear, I don't see a big problem with doing it for on-trail routes (including routes on unofficial or well-established "social trails" but for anything off-trail I think it's not so good, particularly where bottlenecks won't already force everyone into the same spot (where there is likely already an aforementioned well-established social trail...). Beckey-like CAG approach descriptions are fine as they allow for many interpretations and hence help disperse the footfalls better than a GPS track. |
GPS tracks allow for interpretation and in many cases demand it. Remember the accuracy is far from pin point, especially in cliffy or wooded areas.
On the ground, GPS doesn't tell you where to put your feet, that's still up to common sense, which allows people to disperse through the meadow. GPS just tells them they're in the right meadow, and going the right way. You still have to find the best way around the boulders and across the creek.
(Also, you still have to decide to do it in the first place, uploading a track doesn't automagically make people go out and follow it.)
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cyclopath
Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 7716 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle |
|
Cyclopath
Faster than light
|
Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:00 pm |
|
|
GPS records of all the hikes and bike rides I've done for many years are up on Garmin's site. You wouldn't be able to find them, but I'll send a copy to just about anyone who asks.
If I feel like it's a sensitive place, I'll explain why and ask that they respect it.
A few times, mostly at work, people have asked for the GPS track, then looked at the elevation chart and decided not to go.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
olderthanIusedtobe
Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Posts: 7707 | TRs | Pics
Location: Shoreline |
| Cyclopath wrote: | | automagically |
If that's not a real word, it should be! I love it.
edited--Holy crap, that word dates back at least to the 70's according to urban dictionary. I don't think I've ever encountered it before.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cyclopath
Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 7716 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle |
|
Cyclopath
Faster than light
|
Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:12 pm |
|
|
I'm a software developer. We use that word a lot to describe how our code works. 
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
Posts: 3589 | TRs | Pics
Location: Port Angeles |
|
RumiDude
Marmota olympus
|
Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:31 pm |
|
|
| FiveNines wrote: | | RumiDude wrote: | | Regardless, the "secret" places we are talking about are actually public lands, open to all. How and why individual places go viral is a complex phenomena with many factors involved. Photos, names on maps, mentions in TRs and guide books, word of mouth, travel/hiking/adventure forums, etc., all contribute to the "discovery" of the secret places. |
The place is not the secret. Routing information is the secret here. Knowledge is power. |
It is still public lands as opposed an individual's private banking or similar accounts, which iron and joker suggested are equivalent. AFAIK, everything we are discussing here is on public lands.
If you park yourself on a busy wide trail and watch people walk it and where they go, you will notice that there are two main ways people will select to travel on that wide trail when unimpeded. There will be one main one which about 75% of the people naturally follow and another where about 23% travel. That is probably a result of evolution affecting how humans select the "best" path. Off trail is similar with a little more variation, but enough people over time will begin to wear a bootpath. There are places where that kind of following the easiest path can get a person into a dangerous place, similar to the snow descent from Aasgard Pass where several have been killed.
| FiveNines wrote: | | Riverside Laker wrote: | | Dot to dot hiking is akin to dot to dot coloring. It's not adventure, and it's not art. |
Well said. |
Then do it like Fred Beckey. Stop reading guide books, even Beckey's own CAG and make your own personal FAs. Get a compass and map and figure it all out yourself, from approach, to the top, and getting back to civilization. No one is stopping anyone from having a "true" adventure.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
|
| Back to top |
|
|
joker
seeker
Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 7953 | TRs | Pics
Location: state of confusion |
|
joker
seeker
|
Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:45 pm |
|
|
| RumiDude wrote: | | It is still public lands as opposed an individual's private banking or similar accounts, which iron and joker suggested are equivalent. |
Sorry, no. That's most definitely NOT what I meant to suggest. I can see how you might come to that conclusion from the exchange, but as I subsequently noted my stake in this discussion is NOT about keeping places secret. It's about specificity of route info for getting to those places (with an eye toward dispersing travel, as suggested at LNT.ORG for off-trail travel). What I meant in that password analogy exchange is that the fact that GPS route info may appear elsewhere (much like passwords may well be easily hacked, as is well documented in the computer security literature) does not mean that establishing a social norm of not sharing it (much like norms of creating "strong" passwords, which btw are also hackable) won't slow the establishment of new social trails (much like strong passwords diminish the success of hacking them, even if the hacking will nonetheless sometimes succeed).
ETA: I also seriously doubt it's how Iron intended his remark, based on his prolific trip reporting on special and lesser known places.
I find these discussions particularly tiring when folks will insist that those who say they're not trying to keep places for just themselves are trying to keep places for just themselves.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pcg
Member
Joined: 09 Jun 2012
Posts: 334 | TRs | Pics
|
|
pcg
Member
|
Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:00 pm |
|
|
| RumiDude wrote: | | Stop reading guide books, even Beckey's own CAG and make your own personal FAs. Get a compass and map and figure it all out yourself, from approach, to the top, and getting back to civilization. No one is stopping anyone from having a "true" adventure. |
Nailed it! To me the recipe for adventure is exploring the unknown and solving puzzles. What's there? What can I see from there? How can I get there? What's down that canyon? What's up that gulley? For this reason I eschew most guidebooks and trails as well.
This is not the point though. The point of the OP (I think) is that more and more people are going onto their public land without proper education on how to treat that land, both to protect it and to protect themselves. Because it belongs to all of us, every individual has a responsibility to treat it as if it belongs to someone else, because it does, everyone else. Wear and tear, from more trails to litter, is inevitable as population increases and the marketing forces behind the outdoor gear segment of our ever-increasing GDP push an outdoor adventure lifestyle on the population. Publishing GPS tracks to less-traveled areas accelerates this process and brings it to pristine areas that otherwise wouldn't get it. It's hard to argue that that is not true.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Randito
Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 9512 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
|
Randito
Snarky Member
|
Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:19 pm |
|
|
For entertainment value go and read some of Silas's "trip reports" on turns-all-year.com to see the art of ofuscated trip reports.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mike
Member
Joined: 09 Jul 2004
Posts: 6396 | TRs | Pics
Location: SJIsl |
|
mike
Member
|
Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:23 pm |
|
|
On public lands and lands with permitted entry I say post away! More people out there may mean more public support and funding. There are no secret places. In my lifetime over the last...let's just say long time many of my favorite places are taking a hit. But nothing some infrastructure $¢ couldn't fix.
However I have seen some TR's trespassing on private property. Bad form. 
|
| Back to top |
|
|
joker
seeker
Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 7953 | TRs | Pics
Location: state of confusion |
|
joker
seeker
|
Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:31 pm |
|
|
| Jeff wrote: | | His point is that technology is letting less experienced people easily visit his favorite places. |
Whose point? I read Iron's OP as reflecting a concern about contributing to tread creation. Not as being about attempting to prevent visitation.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
Posts: 3589 | TRs | Pics
Location: Port Angeles |
|
RumiDude
Marmota olympus
|
Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:32 pm |
|
|
| joker wrote: | | RumiDude wrote: | | It is still public lands as opposed an individual's private banking or similar accounts, which iron and joker suggested are equivalent. |
Sorry, no. That's most definitely NOT what I meant to suggest. |
Thanks for that clarification. It seemed you were agreeing with what iron wrote so I included you in that.
| iron wrote: | | RumiDude wrote: | | The idea that we can protect our special places by keeping them secret is folly. We also can't keep people from moving or traveling here. |
the idea that we can protect our identity and passwords secret is folly. we should just publish them for any and all to see. |
| joker wrote: | | I find these discussions particularly tiring when folks will insist that those who say they're not trying to keep places for just themselves are trying to keep places for just themselves. |
I hope I have not suggested that. I try to be as clear and direct as possible. But I will add that it is somewhat problematic when people go to one of these supposed fragile places several times and then declare something like "last time I was up there I passed 20 people". Well if it is so fragile that it can't take lots of traffic, why are they repeatedly going there? I have noticed a bit of that here on NWHikers going back several years. But to be clear, I am not accusing you of such.
What exactly is the problem? If we can define the problem then we can begin to solve the problem. Is it that a place goes "viral"? Is it that there are too many people? Is it that there is trash? Is it that the area is too delicate to handle many people? Is it all of these?
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
|
| Back to top |
|
|
joker
seeker
Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 7953 | TRs | Pics
Location: state of confusion |
|
joker
seeker
|
Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:33 pm |
|
|
Iron wrote about contributing to the creation of treads in his OP. Separately, on other threads, BigSteve has written well about how GPS tracks can contribute to this on some off-trail routes that didn't previously have treads, and where Beckey-level-specificity in description is enough to help people get there while allowing for plenty of dispersion. How GPS tracks are precise enough to encourage folks into the same bottlenecks such that tread creation is more likely than if the same number of people try the various possible and viable ways to follow the verbal description. Has Iron actually said he wants to limit visitation? If so, I missed that part.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Randito
Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 9512 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
|
Randito
Snarky Member
|
Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:05 pm |
|
|
| joker wrote: | | Has Iron actually said he wants to limit visitation? If so, I missed that part. |
Seems that way -- at least limiting the visitation of people that haven't learned navigational skills or proper manners.
| iron wrote: | | you see this trend each year. 2017 was trappers peak. a few years ago it was sekret mtn loop lakes. and on and on.
i've removed all my maps, both to trivial and not-trivial locations, as i see the impacts. i feel the pressure of a population crunch. i see people that don't know WTF they're doing out there - both safety and LNT-wise. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
joker
seeker
Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 7953 | TRs | Pics
Location: state of confusion |
|
joker
seeker
|
Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:07 pm |
|
|
Ok,I rooted in on the tread aspect. My bad on reading comprehension there.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Disclosure: As an Amazon Associate NWHikers.net earns from qualifying purchases when you use our link(s). |
