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| Should maps with routes, especially GPS, be included in Trip Reports |
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| No |
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| Total Votes : 86 |
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Among other thought provoking questions... should you post pictures for the 2018 NWH Calendar?
Reminder: Deadline is Nov 15, 2017!
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Bernardo
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Joined: 08 Feb 2010
Posts: 2174 | TRs | Pics
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Bernardo
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 Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:53 pm |
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I hear ya Joker. Ha. I guess the real issue is that what's posted in the spirit of honest sharing is not just read by good hiking buddies and beloved forum antogonists, but also potentially by the whole world.
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Malachai Constant
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Joined: 13 Jan 2002
Posts: 16092 | TRs | Pics
Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
This site is a very small microcosm of the online hiking universe. I can find a route to anywhere in seconds. So it goes.
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Stefan
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Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 5091 | TRs | Pics
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Stefan
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Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:49 pm |
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| iron wrote: | | as technology becomes ever more invasive in our world, it seems to me that the obvious long-term trend will be for nearly everyone to use a GPS to get out hiking, travel off trail, and go to remote places. when you put a line on a map, post it somewhere along with pretty pictures, a tread will form and eventually (or sooner-than-eventually), become popular and the latest must-see place. i, for one, vote to never post routes of trips i've done and would hope that others feel the same way too regarding their trips. |
You know I will post a info to dirtbag climbers even for dumpsters on abandoned road conditions! But I look at a little differently...there are rare people out there who do the crazy stuff I go to. For them its helpful. For 99% of others it is white noise and they will ignore the junk I produce. Does it create a boot path? Not on the western side of cascades. I have seen trails disappear due to the vegetation. Long term will more people go? I highly doubt the obscure places will see tread even with a large population growth. Then if there is a number of people going for a peak...like say Dana...in the Olympics and people start using the tread, then a trail forms....instead of multiple trails. This argument could have been said by Herman Ulrichs when he was around. His argument would have been: "Build a road up the Skagit from Sedro Wooley to Twisp? Why not leave the area alone? Trails?" I have benefited from trails. I would benefit from more. And more people advocating. Will this place turn into how the Alps are treated with smoothed rock on routes due to boot trampling? I don't know.
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
Posts: 3590 | TRs | Pics
Location: Port Angeles |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:00 pm |
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| markweth wrote: | | First things first, yes it is public land and everyone is entitled to access it. However, myself and other hikers do not owe anyone even the vaguest details about how we got there, where we camped, how pretty it was, if the fish were biting, etc. Sure, I was backpacking on public land but the knowledge I gained is personal and I will share that as I see fit in accordance with my own ethics, values, mood, and perhaps state of inebriation at any given time. |
Which is as it should be. I rarely post TRs anymore and when I do they are posed on another site. One of the main reasons is that I have pretty much have given up taking a camera with me. I have a GPS but rarely take it. I use it to mark places I may wish to return to. But nobody is under any duty to post TRs and any information at all. If I read a TR here and thought it would be helpful to me, I would PM the person and ask for information.
| markweth wrote: | | I feel like posting maps with routes on them that are not "official" trails or already well-worn social paths should perhaps be discouraged. |
This is where we differ. In my mind there is equally nothing wrong with posting a detailed GPS tracking map. And people doing so should not be guilt tripped by others. Again, there is nothing unethical or unwise in doing so. Nobody is giving away classified information about public lands when they post a GPS track.
My contention is that trying to control information about public lands in order to protect "special" places is attacking the "problem" with a hopelessly futile strategy. The genie of the interwebs is out. Governments have tried controlling the flow of information on the internet and have failed. These are public lands there is no way to legally restrict the sharing of GPS tracks and photos. Getting people to voluntarily restrict information sharing is even more problematic. And even if only one photo or one description of a place exists, it has the potential to go viral. And no one knows why one goes viral and another doesn't.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Bernardo
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Bernardo
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Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:29 am |
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It's interesting to read some of the early threads on this site when there was a certain feeling of magic about exchanging information online about hiking. There was a simplicity then when this was all new.
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Sculpin
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Joined: 23 Apr 2015
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Sculpin
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Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:37 am |
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I have read that there are far fewer trail miles in good hiking condition than there were 50 years ago, and that fits with my experience in the backcountry. For every route like the bootpath to Robin Lake which has turned into a superhighway, there are five routes that are gone or nearly gone.
This year I followed route descriptions from Whitebark to Helena Mines and Devil's Peak, and considered but did not make it up on Helena Ridge. The Devil's Peak mining-road-turned-trail is described in an ancient version of "Trips and Trails" that I picked up at a library sale. When the book was written 50 years ago, the walk took you up to sweeping views of craggy peaks, two large waterfalls, a climb of Devil's Peak, a side trail to Devil's Lake, and a quarry where you can collect Miocene leaf fossils. I didn't make it far, bobbing and weaving through the thick brush that has grown over the road since the book was written. I am seriously considering adopting this trail and brushing it out next year all the way to the quarry.
I don't like crowded trails. But after hours of solitude on a seldom-used trail, I always enjoy meeting and chatting with fellow hikers.
I just cannot understand why someone who enjoys the backcountry would want these trails to disappear, yet that is exactly what you advocate when you discourage the free exchange of information on seldom-used trails.
Between every two pines is a doorway to the new world. - John Muir
Between every two pines is a doorway to the new world. - John Muir
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DIYSteve
seeking hygge
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 12655 | TRs | Pics
Location: here now |
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DIYSteve
seeking hygge
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Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:13 am |
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| RandyHiker wrote: | | Anything within a four drive of Puget Sound city isn't wilderness (even if protected by wilderness designation) so mentally I think it is useful to think of the Cascades more as "park lands" where "keep on the path" is more the expectation. |
Well, of course, if you can drive to a place in a motor vehicle, that place is not wilderness. But are you seriously suggesting that all places accessible via travel on foot or ski from a TH accessible via a 3-4 hour drive from greater Seattle are not true wilderness? Berdeen Lake? Mystery Ridge? Mt. Despair? Yang Yang Lakes? Wilcox Lakes, Isolation Peak? Cosho Peak? Mt. Fury? Challenger Glacier? Perfect Pass? Mt. Prophet? Redoubt? E flank of Mt. Hinman? Big Snow? Those are among the most wild places in the lower 48. Of course they are wilderness, i.e., they are unchanged by human development, places where humans are merely visitors who do not remain.
Getting back to the original question: I have always opposed red lining off-trail routes for the reasons mentioned. I'm fine with redlining established FS trails, although I can't imagine why someone would do that.
and
Keeping a place secret (which is impossible or at least impracticable) is distinguishable from forbearing from posting red line off-trail routes. Apples v. oranges
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Bootpathguy
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| RumiDude wrote: | | And even if only one photo or one description of a place exists, it has the potential to go viral. And no one knows why one goes viral and another doesn't.
Rumi |
Main reason and explanation for that is...
"Rudimentary access", is why it goes viral. A pretty picture is the catalyst
It's that simple. It's not some unexplained phenomenon
Experience is what'cha get, when you get what'cha don't want
Experience is what'cha get, when you get what'cha don't want
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joker
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joker
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Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:32 am |
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Yes, there's a similar discussion among photographers particularly in the Instagram world about ethics of sharing or not sharing detailed location info for photos, particularly GPS coordinates for shots. I think the case BigSteve has made elsewhere regarding off-trail routes is a bit different but equally worthy.
| Sculpin wrote: | | I just cannot understand why someone who enjoys the backcountry would want these trails to disappear, yet that is exactly what you advocate when you discourage the free exchange of information on seldom-used trails. |
Yes, this is why I tried to distinguish between trailed routes and truly off-trail routes in my own comments. GPS tracks of fading old trails could be quite useful - i.e. when one loses the trail, in helping one re-find it a bit further on.
As to comments about failure of governments to control communications, yes this will quite often fail (though if you think it's fully failing you aren't really aware of what's going on in some places, including one very large country across the big pond adjacent to us, where most average people aren't using the tools to circumvent the great firewall; but to be clear no one is suggesting such a regime of control here). But OTOH, social norms have been extraordinarily effective for centuries at exerting a strong if not 100% influence on communications. Particularly where they actually make sense to most members of a community.
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
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Location: Port Angeles |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:17 pm |
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| Bootpathguy wrote: | | "Rudimentary access", is why it goes viral. A pretty picture is the catalyst
It's that simple. It's not some unexplained phenomenon |
It seems simple at first glance but is actually complex. Why does one pretty picture go viral and another doesn't? Why does one viral pretty picture cause travel to the location go viral and another pretty viral picture does not?
People have been trying to figure out the dynamics of this stuff for a long time but still haven't come on a way to predict which one if any pretty pictures catalyze viral behavior in humans.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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DIYSteve
seeking hygge
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
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Location: here now |
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DIYSteve
seeking hygge
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Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:05 am |
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| joker wrote: | | Yes, this is why I tried to distinguish between trailed routes and truly off-trail routes in my own comments. GPS tracks of fading old trails could be quite useful - i.e. when one loses the trail, in helping one re-find it a bit further on. |
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markweth
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Joined: 08 Feb 2017
Posts: 155 | TRs | Pics
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markweth
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Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:19 am |
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| RumiDude wrote: | | markweth wrote: | | I think the more "effort" they have to put in the quicker they will learn about how to become better stewards and how tenuous the preservation of theses places really is. Kind of the difference between "earning" something and being given it. |
What makes you think that? Why do you think these two entirely separate issues are correlated somehow? Do you have data or is this just your gut feeling?
I ask because I in my experience the two do not correlate at all, not even a little bit.
Rumi |
Yeah, it's pretty much my gut feeling and based on my observations and experiences. And I think those experiences and observations (with my own perhaps "biased" insight sprinkled in) have some truth to them.
Especially when applied to younger people who are new to the outdoors and only hiking to a place because they saw a pretty picture on Instagram, wanted to go take that same picture, and could simply say "Siri, take me to XYZ Waterfall" into their smartphone and arrive at a destination totally unprepared and uninformed.
I contrast that with people I run into in out of the way places where you have to put in some effort -- both physical and mental -- to arrive there.
Sorry for the topic drift.
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markweth
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markweth
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Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:23 am |
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| RumiDude wrote: | | markweth wrote: | | First things first, yes it is public land and everyone is entitled to access it. However, myself and other hikers do not owe anyone even the vaguest details about how we got there, where we camped, how pretty it was, if the fish were biting, etc. Sure, I was backpacking on public land but the knowledge I gained is personal and I will share that as I see fit in accordance with my own ethics, values, mood, and perhaps state of inebriation at any given time. |
Which is as it should be. I rarely post TRs anymore and when I do they are posed on another site. One of the main reasons is that I have pretty much have given up taking a camera with me. I have a GPS but rarely take it. I use it to mark places I may wish to return to. But nobody is under any duty to post TRs and any information at all. If I read a TR here and thought it would be helpful to me, I would PM the person and ask for information.
| markweth wrote: | | I feel like posting maps with routes on them that are not "official" trails or already well-worn social paths should perhaps be discouraged. |
This is where we differ. In my mind there is equally nothing wrong with posting a detailed GPS tracking map. And people doing so should not be guilt tripped by others. Again, there is nothing unethical or unwise in doing so. Nobody is giving away classified information about public lands when they post a GPS track.
My contention is that trying to control information about public lands in order to protect "special" places is attacking the "problem" with a hopelessly futile strategy. The genie of the interwebs is out. Governments have tried controlling the flow of information on the internet and have failed. These are public lands there is no way to legally restrict the sharing of GPS tracks and photos. Getting people to voluntarily restrict information sharing is even more problematic. And even if only one photo or one description of a place exists, it has the potential to go viral. And no one knows why one goes viral and another doesn't.
Rumi |
Makes sense to me and I know what you mean about not really feeling compelled to even take a camera anymore. Unfortunately, it's not really you or I (or indeed NWhikers posters) that is causing the impact. And I think encouraging ethics which minimize the exposure of vulnerable places to masses of people is a cool thing to do.
I have PMed people for more info on trip reports and have been so grateful for their help, and I think that person-to-person connection is great.
To me this is more about ethics and personally responsibility, than restrictions or regulations. Most of my thoughts have been covered in the Leave No Trace/Social Media thread so I'll stop before repeating myself.
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Malachai Constant
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Joined: 13 Jan 2002
Posts: 16092 | TRs | Pics
Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
Protection through obscurity really does not work anymore. It has been attempted with varying results in Canada and the Olympics.
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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DIYSteve
seeking hygge
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 12655 | TRs | Pics
Location: here now |
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DIYSteve
seeking hygge
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Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:16 pm |
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| Malachai Constant wrote: | | Protection through obscurity really does not work anymore. |
Well, again, it begs the question: Protection of what? I concur that there's little chance that the general location of a place can be protected through obscurity, but this thread posits a different question: Whether GPS redline routes should be posted, and whether forbearing from doing so would be less detrimental to wild places. It's obvious to me that redlines of treadless routes are at higher risk of future tread development.
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