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Should maps with routes, especially GPS, be included in Trip Reports
Yes
58%
 58%  [ 50 ]
No
41%
 41%  [ 36 ]
Total Votes : 86

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PostTue Nov 14, 2017 7:31 pm 
Among other thought provoking questions... should you post pictures for the 2018 NWH Calendar? Reminder: Deadline is Nov 15, 2017!

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RumiDude
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PostSun Nov 12, 2017 12:43 pm 
Well my anecdotal experience has been that there is no correlation between any of this. How people behave towards the environment in the backcountry is a matter of both education (formal or informal) and attitude. Some of the worst offenders are those who have been doing this for a long time. They often feel entitled and think they know better than anyone else. They are some of the worst offenders as far a observing regulations as well, like getting permits, fishing, fires, food storage, etc. On trail, off trail, out of the way difficult places to get to, little gems, it didn't matter. The younger "Siri" crowd was much more likely to know and observe regulations and LNT principles. Younger people are also more receptive to education as far as LNT and regulations. I discovered this when I was a backcountry ranger for NPS in ONP. It was part of my duties to interact with people, helping them understand regs and proper backcountry practices, as well as clean up the mess some might leave. I don't have any data but I do have that concentrated experience. It was eye-opening. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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daffish
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PostSun Nov 12, 2017 2:19 pm 
I would like to bring up a few points that haven’t been touched on yet. The formation of ‘trails’ in the alpine or subalpine seem to the real concern here. Lower down in heavily forested regions, ‘trails’ won’t last unless maintained or get heavily used. On almost any ridge in the cascades above 5000’ elevation, one can usually find animal trails. Even down in the forested areas, there are distinct animal trails in many locations. This is because the terrain naturally ‘channels’ or ‘funnels’ any traveler, animal or human, into specific routes where travel is the easiest. With or without redlines on a map, we humans will follow these same ‘concentrations of travel’ and help maintain a ‘trail’. I read a MRNP brochure that claimed that as few as 25 persons traveling through an alpine area can destroy the fragile vegetation and create a ‘trail’. This is why they encourage parties to spread out when crossing a meadow and do not walk single file. A good LNT practice. As more and more people access the untrailed backcountry for lake bagging, climbing, scrambling, etc, there becomes a greater likelihood that a ‘trail’ will develop. This can not be blamed on redlined maps, but on simple fact of increased usage. Taking the two points together, it is easy to understand that usage is the culprit. To ague that redlined maps creates that increased usage is a red herring and oversimplifies the issue. If you want to keep your ‘special’ area pristine, DO NOT POST. Anything! No pictures. No stories! But remember, this is the Information Age and it’s already out there.

"Be moderate in everything, including moderation" Horace Porter
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DIYSteve
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PostSun Nov 12, 2017 3:41 pm 
RumiDude wrote:
Well my anecdotal experience has been that there is no correlation between any of this.
Have you done a route before the publication of redline route and repeated the same route thereafter? I have done so several times and noticed a big fat foot tread along the redline route.

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Malachai Constant
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PostSun Nov 12, 2017 3:53 pm 
I traveled a nice route and it was untraveled the next year the route was flagged a year later the road to the route was locked with ecoblocks three mi from the trailhead rendering it useless.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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daffish
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PostSun Nov 12, 2017 4:19 pm 
DIYSteve wrote:
Have you done a route before the publication of redline route and repeated the same route thereafter? I have done so several times and noticed a big fat foot tread along the redline route.
Yes, I have been several places where at first there has been no 'trail' and then in later years a re-visit has shown that an established 'path' now exists. The question you need to ask yourself is the entire redline-on-a-map now a trail or just certain segments at perhaps certain elevations? Realize that it takes a very small number of usages to establish a 'path'. My experience is that these types of 'trails' fade in and out according to how the terrain 'allows' your travel. And it takes so few travelers to inadvertently create a 'path'. I blame everything - mountain porn pictures, glowing reports, and, yes, even maps. All this 'sharing' creates a desire for people to go there also to experience the beauty. But to single out redlined maps as the culprit and ignore all other aspects of reporting seems somewhat like scapegoating.

"Be moderate in everything, including moderation" Horace Porter
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DIYSteve
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PostSun Nov 12, 2017 4:56 pm 
Animals and humans form treads in choke points and on ridges, of course. I'm not talking about those. Those treads get formed with or without books and internet posts because the natural terrain steers humans and other animals into corridors. I'm talking about tread formation in areas where there is great route flexibility, and thus much opportunity for dispersed travel. An example of such an area is the Bacon/Hagan/Berdeen/Blum area. I haven't seen much tread formation in that area, and the only redline maps of which I'm aware in a recently published book which AFAICT hasn't sold many copies. OTOH, off the top of my head I can think of 3 routes that had no treads (or merely faint animal treads that followed the route for a bit then veered off route) when I did them years ago, but now have established trails that correspond quite precisely to published redline maps. In 2 cases, the formation of the trail correlates with the publication of a popular climbing book with redline maps. In the other case, the trail formation correlates with the publication of a TR w/redline route that has gotten a few thousand hits. Yeah yeah, correlation is not causation, but it often is compelling evidence of causation. Note that Beckey published written route descriptions of all 3 routes decades ago, but the trails hadn't formed until after the publication of the redline maps. Those are 3 that come to mind. I'm sure there are many more. I don't buy the false equivalency that mention of a place, photos of a place and a redline map to a place are all the same thing. That doesn't make any sense. There is growing segment of hikers that only hike on trails or on routes for which they have GPS waypoints. If they don't have a redline map for a place, they won't go to that place. I never "singled out" redline maps as the sole cause of undue thread formation. I don't know where you got that.

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DIYSteve
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PostSun Nov 12, 2017 5:24 pm 
Is that an attempt at humor?

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daffish
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PostSun Nov 12, 2017 5:53 pm 
The entire subject of this thread is about posting 'maps' and 'GPS routes'
iron wrote:
when you put a line on a map, post it somewhere along with pretty pictures, a tread will form
iron wrote:
i, for one, vote to never post routes of trips i've done and would hope that others feel the same way too regarding their trips.
I did not mean to imply that DIY Steve ever said that maps were solely to blame. But the jist of many arguements here suggest that it is the 'published routes' that are creating the problem. Even the OP implies that he can continue to post reports of his travels and as long as he doesn't post any 'maps'. I just do not believe that posting maps has any more or less impact on visitation than any other data in a trip report. Actually, I personally would prefer a very well written, concise worded route description over a red line on a topo map if I were to use that data to go somewhere. I would also note that the routes Beckey had written about and referenced by DIY Steve were written 30 years ago. One would seriously have to wonder if trails were formed due to simple increased use of those routes, the time period of that use, or the publication of redline maps? Or what combination, if any, of the previous?

"Be moderate in everything, including moderation" Horace Porter
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DIYSteve
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PostSun Nov 12, 2017 6:11 pm 
daffish wrote:
I would also note that the routes Beckey had written about and referenced by DIY Steve were written 30 years ago. One would seriously have to wonder if trails were formed due to simple increased use of those routes, the time period of that use, or the publication of redline maps? Or what combination, if any, of the previous?
There's no need to wonder. Get out there and you'll see a significant segment of the hiking population that travel only where their GPS takes them. They never wander off their GPS track, whether it's a maintained trail or a redline GPS track they downloaded off the internet. They are easy to spot: they split their viewing between GPSr or smart phone screen and pretty things they can take a pic of for a FB post. Once the GPS track results in a trail, the issue compounds itself because more pics get posted on social media and word quickly gets out that "hey, there's now a trail to this really cool place!" and the trail-only hikers start their pilgrimage to that really cool place. I'm not talking about the sketches in your very fine book, which are akin to Dee Molenaar's sketches in Beckey's books. Travel-by-GPSers don't use those resources. They travel by GPS track and without a GPS track they wouldn't be there. And if they aren't there, they aren't pounding out a tread along the GPS track. Nor are they taking pics and posting them on social media.

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daffish
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PostSun Nov 12, 2017 6:47 pm 
You could be correct about GPS users as I don't seem to have as much direct experience with that style of backcountry traveler as you seem to. But I must get down to the nitty-gritty. Every one draws a line somewhere. Do you differenciate between red lines on topo maps and maps with GPS coordinates? Obviously, I approve of posting red lined maps. To me, they only 'suggest' a route that needs verification with on-the-spot observations and much like cairns or flagging only show a route that (good or bad) someone has gone that particular way before. But one must still use basic backcountry travel sense to complete a route. GPS is different. I agree with you that a GPS can guide you to an exact way point without the need for anything other than pure strength and gumption. Yes, people can get to anywhere in the wilderness using GPS. But, I have always been promoting the red lined topo map. I do not see anything wrong with posting trip reports with topos. I have never said good or bad about reports with GPS and I do take your points regarding their users.

"Be moderate in everything, including moderation" Horace Porter
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DIYSteve
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PostSun Nov 12, 2017 7:18 pm 
daffish wrote:
I do not see anything wrong with posting trip reports with topos.
We differ. I have noted on this thread and others the unfortunate consequences of published redline maps. Based on what I have seen, it can change a wild place and makes it less wild. Once that happens, there's no going back. A travel-by-wire GPSer can convert a redline map to a GPS track in a couple minutes. And they do. I know about travel-by-wire hikers by observing, communicating with them and seeing their posts. They are lots of them and more are coming on board all the time. It doesn't take any backcountry travel chops to follow a GPS track. None. Look at the screen and walk where the arrow points, and there's no need to read the terrain or make routefinding decisions. I accept that I cannot do anything to slow the consequences of published redline routes, and I expect the trend to accelerate as fly-by-wire mountain travelers gradually replace we old timers who learned to navigate by map & compass and developed our routefinding chops via years of exploration.

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RumiDude
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PostSun Nov 12, 2017 8:22 pm 
DIYSteve wrote:
RumiDude wrote:
Well my anecdotal experience has been that there is no correlation between any of this.
Have you done a route before the publication of redline route and repeated the same route thereafter? I have done so several times and noticed a big fat foot tread along the redline route.
The above quote is a response to markweth, a sort of ongoing dialog we were having. Sorry for not quoting him so as to avoid confusion. Here is the the conversation. But to answer your question, I don't know. The reason is I don't follow redline GPS tracks so I don't seek them out. I don't know if there is one or not. I have used GPS waypoints that mark crucial features to be aware of. At the same time, I have learned to be a bit distrustful of GPS information regardless of it's source. That would especially apply to getting it from someone I don't know. Additionally I am careful about other things like written descriptions because stuff changes all the time out there. In other words, I have learned to trust my own map skills rather than other people. If I get lost, I don't want it to be because I relied on someone else. My mantra is "confirm, confirm, confirm". Now that I have lost so much vision I am no longer as adventurous as I was even just five or six years ago. But this returns me to the questions I posed earlier in this thread:
RumiDude wrote:
What exactly is the problem? If we can define the problem then we can begin to solve the problem. Is it that a place goes "viral"? Is it that there are too many people? Is it that there is trash? Is it that the area is too delicate to handle many people? Is it all of these?
Given the increased participation in backcountry pursuits, the development of bootpaths where there were formerly none is inevitable. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Bedivere
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PostSun Nov 12, 2017 8:32 pm 
You elitist scum. How dare you not spoon feed me?

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PostSun Nov 12, 2017 11:03 pm 
Even if a trip report doesn't have a GPS redline, it rarely takes much effort to put together one's own GPS track with Caltopo and a careful reading of a couple trip reports and route descriptions. Perhaps many people aren't willing to put in that effort, but I sometimes like the safety blanket of a GPS track to refer to, and I manage to come up with my own when I want to, regardless of whether there's an actual track in anyone's report or not.

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Foist
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PostMon Nov 13, 2017 12:00 pm 
This whole thing is so bizarre. I understand the general position that everyone should figure out the wilderness by themselves, and the fewer people in remote fragile areas, the better. I don't agree with it, but I get it. But splitting hairs between posting a trip report describing your route and conditions, and posting a trip report with all that plus a gps track, is ludicrous. There is just no way that red line is making the difference between tread appearing, and tread not appearing. It's just not plausible. Tread starts to form because people physically see where other people have walked with their eyes, and so they rely on that to follow the same route. You could honestly make the argument that having a gps track will actually *mitigate* the creation of tread, because people can rely on the track rather than step on the spots where they see footprints. But honestly I don't think it makes any difference one way or the other. (Also, a bit of tread here or there in off-trail areas doesn't bother me, anyway.) Also, so tired of the strawman "why do you think you're entitled to my info?" in, for example, Belvidere's sarcastic post. Nobody is saying that anyone is *obligated* to post trip reports of gps tracks, or that you're a bad person if you DON'T post a report. On a few occasions, I have refrained from posting reports in a selfish, but likely futile, desire to avoid further publicizing the place. The debate is whether posting a trip report (or a gps track) is a nice thing to do, or a bad thing to do, as a general matter. I think it's a nice thing to do. It doesn't mean you have to do it, no one is entitled to it, but it will help other people have a better time out there. This thread/poll also confirms my view that the "abolish trip reports" crowd is more vocal but in the minority.

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