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mb
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mb
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PostTue Dec 26, 2017 7:53 pm 
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RandyHiker wrote:
E-bikes are regularly seen whizzing on rail-trails in the Seattle area.  Technically this is illegal, but there is no meaningful enforcement unless there is a collision.

CA has a law pretty much specifically allows e-bikes everywhere bikes are allowed, and I guarantee you they are pushing for it in other states. (I haven't checked to see how far they've gotten, but looks like it's not the case in WA - http://wabikes.org/growing-bicycling/washington-bike-laws/illegal-to-use-electric-bikes-on-sidewalks/ )


Do look and see how many of them are pedelec vs throttle. I'm curious if my observations are shared by otherss.
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Pyrites
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PostTue Dec 26, 2017 8:01 pm 
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I doubt they are illegal. I知 not volunteering to look it up. But I致e seen quoted elsewhere Fed DOT rules that allowed e-bikes on rails to trails that were built in part with Fed grant dollars. My assumption is that nearly all such projects use Fed grants. Max 750 watts, pedals, and a max speed on the level.  (20 mph, 170 pound passenger?).

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RandyHiker
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PostWed Dec 27, 2017 12:38 am 
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Ebikes will undoubtedly be permitted on many rail-trails andbike paths.

That fine, but it is a distinct issue from h.r.1349 which seeks to permit non-motorized bicycles within wilderness boundaries.
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treeswarper
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PostWed Dec 27, 2017 5:45 am 
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RandyHiker wrote:
mb wrote:
E-mtb is going to be interesting

Not really,  they are clearly motorized transport.  They should be treated the same as gasoline powered motorbikes.   In terms of interactions with other trail users , the do pose a slight additional complication in that with gasoline powered motorbikes hikers are aware of a motorbikes approach well in advance.  With electric bikes , other trail users can be surprised,  this is sometimes a source of conflict between pedal powered bike riders and other trail users, bitterly in Marin County for example.

Look up the Washington State law.  E-bikes are considered to be bicycles by the state.  I researched this prior to buying one.  They can be regulated or banned by other governments like towns and counties.  Bitterness is not the law.  Nor are we Marin County.  Nor are we out to "surprise" other trail users.  I love it how you only pick out the perceived scary things that might happen.  How can some of you even get out of bed in the morning?

No they shouldn't be treated the same as motorcycles.  They are quiet and easy on the ground.  Our local community is seeing a boom in folks buying the e-bikes because they are legal to ride behind gates on FS roads and good to get around on the roads that are in too much disrepair to get a vehicle up.

I pedal enough on my e-bike to get a good workout.  It just allows me to have more fun but as I stated earlier, I guess fun is not in the picture and we all need to suffer more. 

Speaking of wilderness, I will never understand why paraskiing was outlawed.  I am thinking it also was a casualty of the No Fun Allowed way of thinking.  Perhaps this way of thinking is a new religion and not allowing fun activities that differ from just plodding up a trail is the new hair shirt.

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treeswarper
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PostWed Dec 27, 2017 5:48 am 
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And here's the state law.

https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.61.710

No, I am not fighting to open up already established wilderness to scary bikes, but I do agree that too much land is being made off limits to other than foot methods of recreation.  I also am very cynical about "wilderness" when we have trail maintenance, bridges built, armoring etc. of trails yet the areas are considered to be "pristine and untrammeled".  Oh, and I need to add phones, GPS, emergency beacons, etc. to that list.  But that's just the way it is.

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RandyHiker
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PostWed Dec 27, 2017 9:43 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
Speaking of wilderness, I will never understand why paraskiing was outlawed. I am thinking it also was a casualty of the No Fun Allowed way of thinking. Perhaps this way of thinking is a new religion and not allowing fun activities that differ from just plodding up a trail is the new hair shirt.

There is a lot you don't understand (or pretend to not understand)  Two possibilities spring to mind:  1) You're a bit dim.  2) You're being deceptive to further your agenda.
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treeswarper
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PostWed Dec 27, 2017 1:38 pm 
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I have never thought of myself as very bright.  So the dim part fits.  I did make it threw a bit of skool larnin tho.  My mama would not tell us our IQs from whatever testing was done back in the dark ages so I always figgered I was not bright.  You????  Agenda?  I guess it is to stop folks from making all the public lands off limits to all users except for those who can walk or have horses and support my local community.  There, feel better?  Pretty evil agenda, no? eek.gif

There's nothing dumb about liking to ride and have fun on an e-bike or any other piece of equipment.  It just doesn't fit the narrow vision some folks have on what outdoors should be.

I crashed my e-bike when we last had nice weather.  I was going at the high rate of 5mph on a trail where I was hoping to see a hiker to terrorize with my bell,(I've never had a bike with a bell before) but I have never seen anybody else on that trail so it was all in vain.  My tires slipped on one of them slick sticks and down I went into some soft, leafy ground.  Yup, 5mph is really rippin' it up.  Oh, and my dog was unleashed and probably chasin  a babby animal until its heart burst.   embarassedlaugh.gif 


The unleashed hound somewhere around Salmon Meadows which isn't wilderness yet and that's a good thing.

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MyFootHurts
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PostWed Dec 27, 2017 3:14 pm 
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Typically when idealogues are confronted with a different opinion, they accuse the offending party of either being stupid or promoting an agenda.
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Muir fan
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PostWed Dec 27, 2017 3:56 pm 
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RandyHiker wrote:
Ebikes will undoubtedly be permitted on many rail-trails andbike paths.

That fine, but it is a distinct issue from h.r.1349 which seeks to permit non-motorized bicycles within wilderness boundaries.

Well aren't you worried that regular old motorcycles will penetrate the Wilderness force field? Oh, they make sound? What about electric motorcycles?

The point is, motorized transport has always and will always be prohibited from Wilderness. Land managers do what they can to discourage motorized trespass, and generally it works. Just because someone might trespass a Wilderness boundary on an ebike is no reason to ban all bikes... cause the poacher is going to poach regardless of the rules.

Didn't someone post a photo earlier of a robotic exoskeleton that'll make hiking far easier? As those become lighter, less expensive and popular, are we going to have to prohibit all hiking because some people might poach Wilderness with such technology?
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PostWed Dec 27, 2017 6:30 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:
I need to add phones, GPS, emergency beacons, etc.

Same old strawmen.  wink.gif

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PostWed Dec 27, 2017 6:31 pm 
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mb wrote:
In some places they have been 'moving the line' to exclude even hikers

Do you have some evidence for this or are you just making it up?

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mb
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PostWed Dec 27, 2017 6:50 pm 
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Loss of trails to hikers? Sure, this is a particular example I'm thinking of :

https://www.bikemag.com/lines-in-the-dirt/stone-walled/

it's not a federal Wilderness Area. But it is closed to all users now because some officials hate mountain bikers, and since they couldn't justify it based on any sort of real world impacts, they closed it to everyone.

Note that in SF Bay Area there's similar issues but they go back to the 1930's and have to do with more traditional politics and fiefdoms, but the reasons to keep it closed to practically all users have large amounts of romantic unreality to them.

Also see comment way early in this thread where apparently in the 70's there was a movement to close Wilderness Areas to all users; I don't have any info on that beyond this thread.
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treeswarper
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PostThu Dec 28, 2017 6:19 am 
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I do think that the Naches District has closed trails to all users in the muddy spring.  It seems overkill to me.

I wouldn't shut out all users (in a "pristine" wilderness scenario).  I would prohibit maintenance, construction of any new trails, and bridges if folks insist on a literal definition of untrammeled and wilderness.  That way would make the wilderness experience more real.

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PostThu Dec 28, 2017 1:37 pm 
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mb wrote:
it's not a federal Wilderness Area. But it is closed to all users now because some officials hate mountain bikers, and since they couldn't justify it based on any sort of real world impacts, they closed it to everyone.

The area cited in this article is a public watershed.  Tacoma and Seattle Watersheds are off limits to the general public in our area as well.  It has nothing to do with officials hating bikers but rather security, as all watersheds now have issues with.

There are lots of other sensitive areas around that are completely off limits to the general public - notably seabird nesting grounds on islands around Puget Sound.
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PostThu Dec 28, 2017 2:33 pm 
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mb wrote:
it is closed to all users now because some officials hate mountain bikers

Playing the victim card again?  rant.gif   Please learn the difference among the different land designations before throwing around baseless claims.

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Forum Index > Stewardship > Wheels in wilderness bill gets hearing.
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