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Ski
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PostMon Feb 26, 2018 2:33 pm 
I've read plenty of studies and papers by Beschta-Ripple, thank you just the same. That is not an answer to my question above. What may or may not have happened in Yellowstone (or any number of other places where Beschta and Ripple conducted their studies to support their "trophic cascade" theory) may not necessarily be the case here and now. Again, when you come up with something that can be defined as "benefit" that is happening in the present within Washington State, please let me be the first to know.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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PostMon Feb 26, 2018 2:38 pm 
I am kind of hoping they will bring back the free roaming bison to Wa.

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SwitchbackFisher
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PostMon Feb 26, 2018 2:52 pm 
Ski wrote:
I've read plenty of studies and papers by Beschta-Ripple, thank you just the same. That is not an answer to my question above. What may or may not have happened in Yellowstone (or any number of other places where Beschta and Ripple conducted their studies to support their "trophic cascade" theory) may not necessarily be the case here and now. Again, when you come up with something that can be defined as "benefit" that is happening in the present within Washington State, please let me be the first to know.
Your asking the impossible. The most anyone can do is look at a similar situation to ours and hope to achieve a similar result. That I what you admit you have read and seen time and time again. If that's not good enough for you then there is simply no pleasing you because you can't post a fact about a hypothetical situation. I also would like to see bison reintroduced, apparently the Yakima Indian reservation has them as well as wild horses. I can't verify this myself but have read about it.

I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
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Ski
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PostMon Feb 26, 2018 3:12 pm 
No, I am not asking for the impossible. I am asking for a clear, concise, answer to a direct question. I am not interested in "hypotheticals". I am interested only in fact; real-world tangible results brought about by actions (whether direct or indirect.) Rather than even make an attempt to address the question, the response is to refer me back to the source of the aforementioned "theory" (authored by Beschta-Ripple), or simply dodge the question by positing that "hypotheticals" are an acceptable answer to a direct question. Neither of which are answers to direct questions. Show me, on the ground, in the here and now, in Washington State, where the reintroduction of the Gray Wolf has provided anything that can be considered by a reasonable person to have been a "benefit". I'm waiting.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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SwitchbackFisher
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PostMon Feb 26, 2018 3:51 pm 
Ski wrote:
No, I am not asking for the impossible. I am asking for a clear, concise, answer to a direct question. I am not interested in "hypotheticals". I am interested only in fact; real-world tangible results brought about by actions (whether direct or indirect.) Rather than even make an attempt to address the question, the response is to refer me back to the source of the aforementioned "theory" (authored by Beschta-Ripple), or simply dodge the question by positing that "hypotheticals" are an acceptable answer to a direct question. Neither of which are answers to direct questions. Show me, on the ground, in the here and now, in Washington State, where the reintroduction of the Gray Wolf has provided anything that can be considered by a reasonable person to have been a "benefit". I'm waiting.
The results I shared are scientifically gathered data of results albeit not for Washington state. You seem to have an issue with these surveys and I would be very interested if you know something I don't to learn what that is. As far as data or results from Washington state I am sorry but I cannot find anything. Maybe someone else can but I can't. So sorry I can't answer your question all I can say is with the data I found that I mentioned before I support it. If you have data showing it's a bad idea I would also be interested in seeing that. Always willing to learn something new.

I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
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Ski
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PostMon Feb 26, 2018 4:22 pm 
burck17 wrote:
As far as data or results from Washington state I am sorry but I cannot find anything.
^ Probably because the odds of your finding the Holy Grail in the glove box of your car are much better. Tell you what you do.... get online and fire up your Google search engine and find another peer-reviewed study that supports the conclusions of any of the Beschta-Ripple papers. You don't need to find a whole bunch of them. Just find one. Any ol' peer-reviewed paper will do - even if it's written in Sanskrit or Esperanto. Just one. Ready... set... go! === Respectfully, your comments seem to be the result of having over-indulged drinking the Wolf Kool-Aid. It's a common symptom among people who aren't willing to look objectively at facts on the ground and instead choose to let their ideology control their thought processing.
quick fix
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"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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SwitchbackFisher
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PostMon Feb 26, 2018 4:35 pm 
At least I provided some data of any sort rather than nothing at all. If you look at the references used it's not like they are making this up. I am not on any cool aid thanks. If you can provide data showing it's a bad idea ( which I recommended) or anything proving that article is invalid ( which I asked for) I would be willing to listen. Worst case scenario we can eradicate them from most of Washington like we did the first time if it goes badly. But I can name many states that have great population of other big game and wolves if that is your concern. And ranchers will have issues with livestock but at the same time wolves will reduce numbers of grazing animals damaging farmlands. We can spin it a million ways but neither of us can provide proof if it's the right thing to do or not. Unless you can bring any valid response to the table I am over trying to discuss this. Thanks

I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
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SwitchbackFisher
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PostMon Feb 26, 2018 4:40 pm 
Also again why is it that anyone feels the need to get personal in these forums. You don't know me or my ideology. As a matter of fact years ago I would have stood against this but have become more open minded after seeing so many successful reintroduced animals all over the world. But thanks for attacking me since you know me so well. As always I will try to keep any future discussions professional though it can be hard.

I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
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PostMon Feb 26, 2018 5:49 pm 
Ski wrote:
Well... you guys be sure to let me be the first to know when you come up with something that call be considered "benefit" that is happening within the borders of Washington State and that hasn't been quoted out of some paper authored by Mssrs. Beschta and Ripple. I'm all ears.
Some people think that animals can have intrinsic value. I count myself among them. The benefit is that wolves add to the richness of the biosphere. You should take a moment and give that some serious thought. I will admit that I struggle to see the intrinsic value of ticks. wink.gif

Between every two pines is a doorway to the new world. - John Muir
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SwitchbackFisher
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PostMon Feb 26, 2018 5:53 pm 
I can say ticks I can't stand, in ND they are a plague I have taken my dog fishing and had to pull 100 + ticks off him... Permathrin will work miracles on clothes though

I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
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timberghost
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PostMon Feb 26, 2018 6:17 pm 
burck17 wrote:
Also again why is it that anyone feels the need to get personal in these forums
Seems to be you are also the one that gets personal after reading your posts.

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SwitchbackFisher
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PostMon Feb 26, 2018 6:35 pm 
timberghost wrote:
burck17 wrote:
Also again why is it that anyone feels the need to get personal in these forums
Seems to be you are also the one that gets personal after reading your posts.
Can you show me where I resorted to a personal attack please I will apologize if I did.

I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
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Ski
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PostMon Feb 26, 2018 7:06 pm 
Where's the "personal attack"? I just asked a simple question. You dodged it by referring back to the same study you'd already cited. How do you expect me to prove a negative? That is what you're asking for. Per the Beschta-Ripple papers, among the possible potential benefits to be gained from reintroduction of apex predators are: - riparian ecosystems are "brought back into balance". - anadromous salmonid species fare better. Sounds good. Now show me where that has happened in Washington State. What river? Where? What? Not enough time has elapsed? Really? What was the time frame involved at Yellowstone? We should wait how many more years? 50? 100? 1000? At what point in the future should we reasonably expect to see the benefits? Per a local reporter (that most of the members here claim to be a credible source, and who has a pretty good reputation among peers), WDFW spent about $2.5 million on "wolf" during 2015-2016. In the meantime, the Washington State Legislature cannot adequately fund our public school system (and the boondoggle "Sound Transit") without raising local properly taxes by double digits. Maybe wolf proponents feel that is a good thing; when lower and middle-income homeowners can't pay their property taxes, there will be more homeless people wandering around who will provide an abundant protein supply for the wolves. The utopian vision of a "perfectly balanced ecosystem" unfortunately ignores the fact that we as humans still have something called "society" and "civilization" that will still exist in some form regardless of what happens with said "ecosystem". If you expect people to agree with your ideas, you should be able to present facts to back up your arguments. I am not seeing "fact". I am seeing theory presented and accepted as being fact. If you have a credible argument, then there shouldn't be an issue with coming up with evidence to support it.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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SwitchbackFisher
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PostMon Feb 26, 2018 7:21 pm 
Ski wrote:
Respectfully, your comments seem to be the result of having over-indulged drinking the Wolf Kool-Aid. It's a common symptom among people who aren't willing to look objectively at facts on the ground and instead choose to let their ideology control their thought processing.
quick fix
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All this was an unnecessary personal attack your making an assumption that I have been drinking wolf kool-aid.... Letting ideology control their thought process. Just because I am of a different opinion and see things a different way does not mean that any of this is true. If this is what you wish to resort to fine by me, I personally feel it weakens an argument. As I said I am done with the actual argument unless provided with some proof of some sort one way or another because this conversation is clearly not getting either of us anywhere.

I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
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SwitchbackFisher
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PostMon Feb 26, 2018 7:26 pm 
Ski. I can agree there are much better places where that money could be spent than this project.

I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
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