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RandyHiker
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PostSat Jan 06, 2018 6:49 pm 
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xrp wrote:
RandyHiker wrote:

Working with my tax accountant -- it looks like I'll be paying several thousand dollars more in federal taxes in 2018 under the new law than I would had the law been unchanged.  I have a lot of deductions that no longer have as much effect.

That isnít a big deal at all.

It is to me, why am I getting hit up to give big tax breaks to the very wealthy -- so they can buy a bigger yacht?   If was going to pay for better schools, improved medical care for poor children, public recreation on public lands,  I'd feel OK about, but helping Paul Allen buy a bigger yacht -- not happy.
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PostSat Jan 06, 2018 7:49 pm 
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RandyHiker wrote:
xrp wrote:
RandyHiker wrote:

Working with my tax accountant -- it looks like I'll be paying several thousand dollars more in federal taxes in 2018 under the new law than I would had the law been unchanged.  I have a lot of deductions that no longer have as much effect.

That isnít a big deal at all.

It is to me, why am I getting hit up to give big tax breaks to the very wealthy -- so they can buy a bigger yacht?  I'd feel OK about, but helping Paul Allen buy a bigger yacht -- not happy.

No, you have been cheating the system and the poor, the schools, the children, women, minorities and the public lands for far too long. Your loopholes are closed. Time for you to pay your fair share.

And I guarantee you, Paul Allen is still paying more in federal income taxes than you are. I also guarantee you that far more people have earned their way to millionaire status thanks to Paul Allen than thanks to you. Even more have a net worth between $100,000 and $999,999 thanks to Paul Allen than thanks to you.

As a result of all these people making all this money, thanks to Paul Allen (and not you), the amount of federal income taxes Paul Allen is directly or indirectly responsible for generating is likely in the tens of billions of dollars.

At least Paul buying a bigger yacht provides lots of good paying jobs to people -- people who...you know, work to earn their way through life?

Quote:
If was going to pay for better schools, improved medical care for poor children, public recreation on public lands

Better schools: You can donate your time and money to your local school systems. Instead of wasting all your time hiking, you should be volunteering at your local school and giving your money to them. You can buy supplies outright and donate them, if you like. Or, when the local kids come around selling the $20 booklet of coupons, you can give them $200 and tell them to keep the change. Or buy 10 booklets and give 9 to those most in need. You could also hit up your bank or credit union and get $5,000 in $20 bills. Then go to a local high school. Randomly pop into a classroom and start tossing the $20s around and let the needy students play 52-card pick up with your $20s.

Improved medical care for poor children: Kind of the same thing here...Instead of wasting your time hiking, you should be volunteering at your local children's hospital and donating to places like St Jude and/or Shriners. Those are pretty easy to find via Google search.

Public recreation on public lands: Buy up a bunch of National Park yearly passes and go give them away to those most in need. Carpool some of those most in need along with you on your next National Park visit. Stop being greedy and hoarding your yearly pass for yourself.
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RandyHiker
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PostSun Jan 07, 2018 8:14 am 
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xrp wrote:
RandyHiker wrote:
xrp wrote:
RandyHiker wrote:

Working with my tax accountant -- it looks like I'll be paying several thousand dollars more in federal taxes in 2018 under the new law than I would had the law been unchanged.  I have a lot of deductions that no longer have as much effect.

That isnít a big deal at all.

It is to me, why am I getting hit up to give big tax breaks to the very wealthy -- so they can buy a bigger yacht?  I'd feel OK about, but helping Paul Allen buy a bigger yacht -- not happy.

No, you have been cheating the system and the poor, the schools, the children, women, minorities and the public lands for far too long. Your loopholes are closed. Time for you to pay your fair share.

And I guarantee you, Paul Allen is still paying more in federal income taxes than you are. I also guarantee you that far more people have earned their way to millionaire status thanks to Paul Allen than thanks to you. Even more have a net worth between $100,000 and $999,999 thanks to Paul Allen than thanks to you.

As a result of all these people making all this money, thanks to Paul Allen (and not you), the amount of federal income taxes Paul Allen is directly or indirectly responsible for generating is likely in the tens of billions of dollars.

At least Paul buying a bigger yacht provides lots of good paying jobs to people -- people who...you know, work to earn their way through life?

Quote:
If was going to pay for better schools, improved medical care for poor children, public recreation on public lands

Better schools: You can donate your time and money to your local school systems. Instead of wasting all your time hiking, you should be volunteering at your local school and giving your money to them. You can buy supplies outright and donate them, if you like. Or, when the local kids come around selling the $20 booklet of coupons, you can give them $200 and tell them to keep the change. Or buy 10 booklets and give 9 to those most in need. You could also hit up your bank or credit union and get $5,000 in $20 bills. Then go to a local high school. Randomly pop into a classroom and start tossing the $20s around and let the needy students play 52-card pick up with your $20s.

Improved medical care for poor children: Kind of the same thing here...Instead of wasting your time hiking, you should be volunteering at your local children's hospital and donating to places like St Jude and/or Shriners. Those are pretty easy to find via Google search.

Public recreation on public lands: Buy up a bunch of National Park yearly passes and go give them away to those most in need. Carpool some of those most in need along with you on your next National Park visit. Stop being greedy and hoarding your yearly pass for yourself.

There is a hell of a lot of speculation and personal attacks in your post about some you don't know from Adam. 

But suppose "facts don't matter" to supporters of the current administration.
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PostSun Jan 07, 2018 9:36 am 
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How about we keep this on topic about the Discover Pass before it gets locked.
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PostSun Jan 07, 2018 9:42 am 
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brineal wrote:
Ultimately I feel as a taxpayer that I've already made my financial contribution to public lands.  That being said, the $30 is really not a huge deal given the amount of recreation I do per year.

It's not just $30.

Discover Pass
Northwest Forest Pass
Mount Rainier Park Pass
Mount Rainier Climbing Pass
Northwest Volcano Pass (Adams)
Mt. St. Helens permit fee
SnoPark Permit

I didn't look all of this up, but I'm pretty sure it's well over $200, if the new MORA pass fee of $87 is approved.

Add on the hassle of getting the passes/permits, the stupidity of the locked gates (and paying people to lock/unlock every day) at places like Si... Man, it's just nothing short of insane the red tape involved in low-impact activity on public land.

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PostSun Jan 07, 2018 9:50 am 
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xrp wrote:
No, you have been cheating the system and the poor, the schools, the children, women, minorities and the public lands for far too long. Your loopholes are closed. Time for you to pay your fair share.

I understand your anger, and I think it's directed at the wrong group of people. The middle class are getting taxed out of existence in this country, man. Via things like Discover Passes, college tuition going up at three times the rate of inflation, capping of mortgage interest deduction, etc. all so we can give tax breaks to wildly profitable corporations and unimaginably rich individuals. All those companies get to repatriate the billions in profits they've been holding overseas and pay $0 in taxes with this bill. But by all means, let's charge more to hike on public land.

I'm upper middle class and my taxes are going up next year, too. This big "tax cut" is only that for rich people. And I'm paying $12,000 a year more for my health insurance than I was in 2016.

But yeah, let's close up the loopholes for people like me who pay full-boat for health insurance and who are strapped paying full tuition for college.

And let's build a bunch more BS trails and parking lots and infrastructure that weren't needed and we can't afford to maintain and staff and then whine about our budget being inadequate (NPS and DNR) so we can jack up fees.

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PostSun Jan 07, 2018 10:53 am 
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RandyHiker wrote:
xrp wrote:
RandyHiker wrote:
xrp wrote:
RandyHiker wrote:

Working with my tax accountant -- it looks like I'll be paying several thousand dollars more in federal taxes in 2018 under the new law than I would had the law been unchanged.  I have a lot of deductions that no longer have as much effect.

That isnít a big deal at all.

It is to me, why am I getting hit up to give big tax breaks to the very wealthy -- so they can buy a bigger yacht?  I'd feel OK about, but helping Paul Allen buy a bigger yacht -- not happy.

No, you have been cheating the system and the poor, the schools, the children, women, minorities and the public lands for far too long. Your loopholes are closed. Time for you to pay your fair share.

And I guarantee you, Paul Allen is still paying more in federal income taxes than you are. I also guarantee you that far more people have earned their way to millionaire status thanks to Paul Allen than thanks to you. Even more have a net worth between $100,000 and $999,999 thanks to Paul Allen than thanks to you.

As a result of all these people making all this money, thanks to Paul Allen (and not you), the amount of federal income taxes Paul Allen is directly or indirectly responsible for generating is likely in the tens of billions of dollars.

At least Paul buying a bigger yacht provides lots of good paying jobs to people -- people who...you know, work to earn their way through life?

Quote:
If was going to pay for better schools, improved medical care for poor children, public recreation on public lands

Better schools: You can donate your time and money to your local school systems. Instead of wasting all your time hiking, you should be volunteering at your local school and giving your money to them. You can buy supplies outright and donate them, if you like. Or, when the local kids come around selling the $20 booklet of coupons, you can give them $200 and tell them to keep the change. Or buy 10 booklets and give 9 to those most in need. You could also hit up your bank or credit union and get $5,000 in $20 bills. Then go to a local high school. Randomly pop into a classroom and start tossing the $20s around and let the needy students play 52-card pick up with your $20s.

Improved medical care for poor children: Kind of the same thing here...Instead of wasting your time hiking, you should be volunteering at your local children's hospital and donating to places like St Jude and/or Shriners. Those are pretty easy to find via Google search.

Public recreation on public lands: Buy up a bunch of National Park yearly passes and go give them away to those most in need. Carpool some of those most in need along with you on your next National Park visit. Stop being greedy and hoarding your yearly pass for yourself.

There is a hell of a lot of speculation and personal attacks in your post about some you don't know from Adam. 

But suppose "facts don't matter" to supporters of the current administration.

Nah man. You felt the need to tell Paul Allen how his money should be spent, so I told you how your money should be spent. Contrary to progressive belief, money belongs to individuals first, not the government.

Additionally, I provided you with information regarding the multitudes of Microsoft Millionaires Paul Allen helped create. Youíre welcome to introduce evidence of how many millionaires and ďhundred thousandairesĒ youíve created.

Furthermore, you said that you wanted your money to help those in need with specific examples. I helped you out by providing you with direct examples of how you can indeed help and more generous ways to spend your free time, instead of wasting it on hiking or backpacking. It seemed like you didnít know this beforehand. So I have improved you as an individual human being by opening the door for you to be more charitable.

I also pointed out that if youíre paying more in taxes in 2018 vs 2017 or before than you certainly could have been paying more in taxes in 2017 and before. Just because you zero out your taxes owed every year, doesnít mean you canít give more (you should give until it hurts) to the government. This link will help you on your way. As I stated, you need to give until it hurts.

To keep this on topic ó you could use some of your vast sums of money to buy Discover Passes for those most in need. It doesnít matter if they go to state parks, just buy them the passes.
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PostSun Jan 07, 2018 11:19 am 
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And another thread jumps the shark huh.gif

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PostSun Jan 07, 2018 11:22 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
xrp wrote:

How about pay for your own sh##?

Why, when you'll have folks arguing you're entitled to have someone else pay for your sh##?

It's curious. Back in the day federal lands, state lands, blm lands, access to a vast road network both desert and forest all managed to be funded and maintained without the dizzying array of patchwork fees... and at times with far lower state and federal revenues.

Now with record high revenues, worse access and tons of closed roads... There is somehow not enough money

The rise of the Uberstate and its 'social' spending has sucked the oxygen out of other budgetary concerns like keeping good access, proper maintenance of facilities, and road networks maintained without getting nicked  again for outdoors pursuits

Yea it BS...but doesn't matter to me, they won't get a dime out of me unless it's via a fine. I have paid my share of taxes, and yes, it's never enough is it?

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PostSun Jan 07, 2018 11:32 am 
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cascadeclimber wrote:
xrp wrote:
No, you have been cheating the system and the poor, the schools, the children, women, minorities and the public lands for far too long. Your loopholes are closed. Time for you to pay your fair share.

I understand your anger, and I think it's directed at the wrong group of people. The middle class are getting taxed out of existence in this country, man.

The middle class is smaller, true, but letís look at what has happened:


According to Pew, the upper class has increased by 50%. The lower class has increased, but certainly not by 50%. Is this because of tax policy?

% of taxes paid by income percentile over 35 years.

The above NTU information is interesting. It shows that the %s of income tax paid by high income earners has increased over the years, not decreased. See the jumps in the mid 1980s and mid 2000s? Thatís right after the Reagan and Bush ďtax cuts for the richĒ. How interesting.

Quote:
Via things like Discover Passes, college tuition going up at three times the rate of inflation, capping of mortgage interest deduction, etc. all so we can give tax breaks to wildly profitable corporations and unimaginably rich individuals. All those companies get to repatriate the billions in profits they've been holding overseas and pay $0 in taxes with this bill. But by all means, let's charge more to hike on public land.

I'm upper middle class and my taxes are going up next year, too. This big "tax cut" is only that for rich people. And I'm paying $12,000 a year more for my health insurance than I was in 2016.

If youíre upper middle class then you should know that corporations donít pay taxes. Taxes are paid by the customer. Corporations donít hold wealth. Only individuals do.

I guess you can thank Obamacare for your $12k more in health insurance? Because that is what is causing it. To keep this on topic, Obamacare might cause you to not buy a Discover Pass. Sorry.  frown.gif

College tuition rate increases are directly linked to the available amount of federal money available for loans and low interest rates. To help keep this on topic, the inflated costs for college can impact college studentsí ability to afford Discover Passes. RandyHiker should buy some for a lot of students.

Quote:
But yeah, let's close up the loopholes for people like me who pay full-boat for health insurance and who are strapped paying full tuition for college.

And let's build a bunch more BS trails and parking lots and infrastructure that weren't needed and we can't afford to maintain and staff and then whine about our budget being inadequate (NPS and DNR) so we can jack up fees.
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PostSun Jan 07, 2018 11:47 am 
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cascadeclimber wrote:
brineal wrote:
Ultimately I feel as a taxpayer that I've already made my financial contribution to public lands.  That being said, the $30 is really not a huge deal given the amount of recreation I do per year.

It's not just $30.

Discover Pass
Northwest Forest Pass
Mount Rainier Park Pass
Mount Rainier Climbing Pass
Northwest Volcano Pass (Adams)
Mt. St. Helens permit fee
SnoPark Permit

I didn't look all of this up, but I'm pretty sure it's well over $200, if the new MORA pass fee of $87 is approved.

Add on the hassle of getting the passes/permits, the stupidity of the locked gates (and paying people to lock/unlock every day) at places like Si... Man, it's just nothing short of insane the red tape involved in low-impact activity on public land.

I will admit I am ignorant to some of what has happened over the years with regards to fees. Say, today vs the 1970s or whenever people are using as a reference for when there were no fees. Iíd like to take a look at the ones you cited and break it down.

I am also curious as to the usage of the outdoors today vs 40-50 years ago. My impression is that the outdoors got far, far less usage back in the 60s/70s/80s because of lack of products available for improving the usage experience of the outdoors. I mean the norm of taking 50lb+ backpacks + equipment vs today. You can ultralight it and do a weekend backpack trip with 10lb of equipment. Additionally, I am guessing that there is much more foreign tourist visitations to NPs today vs 40-50 years ago.

Discover Pass - sorry, I just donít know much about this or its history
Northwest Forest Pass - NWFP is not required for you to use National Forests.
Mount Rainier Park Pass - Similar to the Discover Pass, I suppose. I thought pay to enter NPs has existed for over 80 years now. With the improvements and increased staffing (to accomodate increased crowds), it makes sense that a use fee would be required.
Mount Rainier Climbing Pass - doesnít this pay for potential Search and Rescue operations?
Northwest Volcano Pass (Adams) - I donít know anything about this one, would it be similar to the Mt Rainier Climbing Pass?
Mt. St. Helens permit fee - Same as Rainier/Adams climbing pass? You only need a permit if you climb. You can go to 4,800ish feet (timberline level) w/o pass
SnoPark Permit - You pay for the improvements (snow plowing) to the particular SnoPark. You are free to enjoy the snow covered National Forests w/o a SnoPark Permit as long as you donít park at a SnoPark.
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RandyHiker
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PostSun Jan 07, 2018 3:14 pm 
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xrp wrote:
My impression is that the outdoors got far, far less usage back in the 60s/70s/80s because of lack of products available for improving the usage experience of the outdoors.

Your impression is inaccurate
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PostSun Jan 07, 2018 9:40 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
MyFootHurts wrote:
Make that n>101
But like I mentioned earlier don't let facts get in the way of hysterical ideology.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/over-100-companies-giving-trump-bonuses-after-tax-victory-tsunami-building/article/2644944

Ouch! It didn't take you long to falsify two arguments...but he goalpost dragged to avoid the first one

No arguments have been falsified, the argument is that after 3 years the inflation-adjusted median wage will not be significantly ( p < 0.05, that's basically standard unless otherwise noted) higher than at present.  Gotta go now before I get all hysterical.  Check back in Jan 2021.

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PostMon Jan 08, 2018 9:14 am 
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xrp wrote:
College tuition rate increases are directly linked to the available amount of federal money available for loans and low interest rates.

Incorrect. Costs go up because states have defunded state colleges (see my previous statement about not taxing wildly profitable corporations), and because there's no functional check on tuition increases.

xrp wrote:
I guess you can thank Obamacare for your $12k more in health insurance? Because that is what is causing it.

Incorrect again.

Insurance companies in Washington state explicitly listed the ongoing attempts to repeal and destabilize the ACA, and the very real defunding of the program as the reasons they pulled and resubmitted their proposals the insurance commissioner with an average premium increase of 37%. *One person* discontinued the federal funding for subsidized low-income plans. That $7,000,000,000 got spread onto people who pay full boat, like me. But by all means, let's let Apple repatriate billions in profit tax-free and let the person who did it tell his rich friends, "Because of me you all just got a lot richer".

(bringing this back onto the topic of use-fees for public land) Meanwhile, we cut funding for the National Park Service (again), obliging them to jack entrance fees up to entirely OBSCENE levels.

This country has its collective priorities way the hell out of whack right now.

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PostMon Jan 08, 2018 3:22 pm 
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There is something wrong when a country can be trillions of dollars in debt, there is talk of an imminent government shutdown, yet football teams are spending billions of dollars on a new facility. http://www.cnn.com/style/article/new-nfl-stadium-los-angeles/index.html

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Forum Index > Trail Talk > End Discover Pass, impose mandatory license-plate fee
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