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Ringangleclaw
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Ringangleclaw
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PostThu Jan 11, 2018 12:56 pm 
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gb wrote:
We would meet at the U of W rock and folks would discuss their planned trips. Anyway, this one summer, this one guy who seemed reckless showed up that summer on the same climbs we were doing and it creeped me out. I didn't want anything to do with him as I thought he was reckless and could easily have an accident with us around. We started to be clandestine in choosing climbing objectives. At a later point in time, this same individual took a two thousand foot fall on snow-covered ground on the north face of Monte Cristo while soloing. He wasn't badly injured just badly bruised.

That Quinn, one wild and crazy guy.
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Ringangleclaw
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PostThu Jan 11, 2018 12:59 pm 
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RandyHiker wrote:
RumiDude wrote:
...
My understanding is that in order to receive a permit to climb Denali, one must satisfy the officials that they have adequate experience and safety equipment. I could be wrong about that but that is my understanding. And as far as I know, it is the only mountain in North America that requires that.

Rumi



AFAICT -- Neither the NPS or USFS appear to explicitly administering any sort idiot assessment in the granting of climbing permits.

Yup.   There is no longer any metric in the parks to deny people the right to do things that are allowed in that park. 

MORA and Denali require special solo permits, but they have absolutely no authority to deny a permit properly applied for.
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boot up
Old Not Bold Hiker



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boot up
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PostThu Jan 11, 2018 1:57 pm 
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I pretty much keep quiet these days, after getting stink-eye too often from people when I point out the obvious.   Most of the areas I am in these days are pretty low risk, mainly just risk of hypothermia or frostbite, as people way underestimate how fast and far temps can drop in the High Desert, or surrounding mountains which are quickly and easily accessible to 6k-8k feet elevation on trails used by the flip-flop set carrying nothing.

I usually try to stick to the facts and let them figure it out as they ask "how far to the peak/waterfall/lake/etc" and I am just glad to make it to the car with less than an hour of daylight to spare and tell them its a 6 mile round trip....and they are sauntering.   In my head, I always say "doesn't matter, you won't make it anyway"...but I keep quiet.  smile.gif

What bothers me is the "I survived stupid mistakes, so acting stupid is ok".  As already pointed out, that is the survivors talking.   But hey, its evolution at work, so who am I to judge?  What bothers me is the people that die from their mistakes seem to result in more restrictions for the cautious and ones that can take care of themselves.    And of course, no one is allowed to critique their action to learn from their mistakes.

Recently someone died from a non-climbing fall at Smith Rock, on Misery Ridge trails.   WHAT?  This bewildered me.   The guy managed to fall hundreds of feet in a climbing oriented park with an amazing safety record....for climbers.    Misery is sketchy.  Lots of people get dings and scrapes But plummet to death? 

Then a couple days ago, I saw this and understood.....

Smith Rock 1/8/18, Terrebonne OR
Smith Rock 1/8/18, Terrebonne OR

Bummer is they will eventually close off the "dangerous" areas, instead of letting common sense prevail, which does not seem all that common these days.

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Chief Joseph
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PostThu Jan 11, 2018 2:02 pm 
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True^^^...it's seems that some people enjoy "dancing with death"....one never feels more alive than when they are in a activity where death and injury are possible, even imminent.

It think that's part of the reason why many still enter the Big 4 ice caves, the fact that people have died there makes it far more exciting. Doesn't make sense, it just is.

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cascadeclimber
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PostThu Jan 11, 2018 2:12 pm 
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Ringangleclaw wrote:
Yup.   There is no longer any metric in the parks to deny people the right to do things that are allowed in that park.

Nor should there be, IMO. Parks are wild places where people are best off when the need to be self-reliant and accountable is entirely clear. Gear inspections, skills assessments, wands, ladders, permanent structures, signs, etc. encourage dependence and an expectation of those things. Should there be trail signs around Paradise? Yes. Should the NPS wand the entire DC route? No. I feel the same way about webcams, cell service, internet service, huts, ladders, fixed ropes, most signs, etc. anywhere in the park designated as wilderness.

People need to think for themselves more, not less, in the wilderness.

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cartman
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PostThu Jan 11, 2018 2:41 pm 
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gb wrote:
I think there is a big difference between courses and credentials and experience. That is certainly true regarding avalanche exposure and knowledge.

This.  Some knowledge you can only gain through experience; some lessons are only learned by mistakes.

The first applies to everyone, the second applies individually and is dependent on intelligence, wisdom, experience, and maturity.  Some learn early, some late, a few not at all.


moonspots wrote:
"saying something" is probably appropriate when you're truly concerned, and the danger is imminent or unforgiving. I also think that its reception will be based mostly on how it's presented.

Yep, though some knuckleheads will just keep on no matter what you say.
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Ringangleclaw
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PostThu Jan 11, 2018 2:45 pm 
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I remember being in the parking lot early one evening watch a pair bail from the now fallen flake on  Princely Ambitions at Index.  I alternated from not being able to watch to not being able to not watch.
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silence
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PostThu Jan 11, 2018 2:50 pm 
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We don't lecture, but if we think it might be prudent based on the situation (we never told the guys on the Hoh trail that they were ill-prepared) we will offer info on either the real conditions if we've been there, or potential conditions if we are aware of them so they can figure out for themselves if they have the necessary skill set and/or equipment.

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moonspots
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PostThu Jan 11, 2018 5:05 pm 
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cascadeclimber wrote:
People need to think for themselves more, not less, in the wilderness.

up.gif  up.gif  up.gif  up.gif  up.gif

And not just in the wilderness!

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"Out, OUT you demons of Stupidity"! - St Dogbert, patron Saint of Technology
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Yana
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PostThu Jan 11, 2018 5:35 pm 
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I'll usually have a discussion with people I help rescue (often during their rescue, since there is no guarantee I will talk to them again), if they appear to be in the right frame of mind to learn from their mistakes. Often people realize much of what they did wrong just on further reflection after the fact and it's not even a discussion so much as guiding them to the now obvious conclusions. The problem is that people in general don't plan for things going wrong because it does not occur to them that things might go wrong. After the fact, it can be "well, duh... should have seen that coming," but most discussions with people when something hasn't gone wrong are pretty fruitless (especially if they have gotten away with being stupid in the past).

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RumiDude
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PostThu Jan 11, 2018 5:39 pm 
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cascadeclimber wrote:
cascadetraverser wrote:
I have to chime in with the "don`t preach" group.

Over the years I've also found myself reacting negatively to having my choices judged by someone else's standards. The Mountaineers used to be infamous for this, and on more than one occasion I had them yell at me from far across glaciers that I "shouldn't be doing that!"

For the most part I try to ignore people that get preachy. I smile and nod my head. I understand how it can be irritating and a cause for anger, but at some point I decided I wasn't going to let others dictate my mood and enjoyment of the outdoors. I take a moment to analyze whether what they say has merit. If it does I modify my actions. If not, I let it roll off me like water off a duck's back. I do remember one person following me around for a couple minutes berating me over and over. Finally I had enough and told her to GF herself. She left and I continued on enjoying myself.

cascadeclimber wrote:
1. The choices of the other group have a chance of endangering me.
2. The choices of the other group have a chance of endangering someone in the group who doesn't seem to have the knowledge to make an independent analysis, particularly a young person.

Yes, this isn't about trying to correct enverone you meet, just when certain conditions arise. Even though I can be a LNT nazi, I never say anything to others out in the backcountry unless it is outrageous.

This topic really is about dangerous activity of other as pointed out by cascadeclimber.

Rumi

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cascadeclimber
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cascadeclimber
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PostThu Jan 11, 2018 6:23 pm 
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moonspots wrote:
cascadeclimber wrote:
People need to think for themselves more, not less, in the wilderness.

up.gif  up.gif  up.gif  up.gif  up.gif

And not just in the wilderness!

Agreed and that is how I originally wrote it. I added "in the wilderness." to reduce the chance of thread drift. But absolutely, the concepts of "Think before you act" and "Try to help yourself before you ask others for help" seem to be fading into anachronism, replaced with "We have to have cell service at Paradise" and the now-annual call for a helo to be stationed in the park at all times...just in case (to go along with the ambulance and armed rangers).

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omhk
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omhk
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PostThu Jan 11, 2018 11:40 pm 
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I'm pretty quiet and generally keep to myself. If people who look underdressed or unprepared ask me "how much further is it to the top?" I might gently point out it's a lot further and the conditions deteriorate, but I won't push it.

If there's a blatant hazard on the trail and there's hikers/climbers approaching me from the opposite direction, I tell them about it, but generally this is on trails/routes where people tend to know better anyway.

A pair of really inexperienced hikers in the Pickets of all places set loose a rock the size of a laptop from ~200 ft above us on a steep gully and didn't say a word of warning. We looked up and saw it pelting towards us and had maybe 2-3 seconds to move out of the way on loose terrain. Even with helmets, I think that would've been instant death if it hit one of us. We politely let them know it's standard to warn others below you if you set off a rockfall like that. They genuinely didn't know, which absolutely floors me. Even if that was your first time on rugged terrain like that (I'm thinking it was), I don't know how it doesn't compute in your brain that you should warn the people below you that the rock you just set off is heading straight for them...anyway, I think it's more productive to try teaching people like that since there will be a next time that they go out on terrain like that...
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RichP
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PostFri Jan 12, 2018 9:00 am 
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I generally don't say anything unless I see something that is endangering the lives of others such as trundling when there is a trail below or making a fire when there is a burn ban. As others have said it's often how you say things rather than what you say. Most people are not too receptive to criticism even when it's in their best interest in this day and age.

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RumiDude
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PostFri Jan 12, 2018 2:35 pm 
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Well, however you come out on this discussion, I think it is good to have it and think about. If you know what circumstances in which you will speak up beforehand, then you don't have to go through all the thought processes when out there. So if you have decided to never speak up, then you don't have to ever wonder out there because you have already decided to ignore other people. If you know what circumstances you will speak up in, then all you have to do is decide if the circumstances you are faced with meet that standard.

Rumi

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