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Chief Joseph
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PostThu Feb 01, 2018 11:40 pm 
rossb wrote:
Stefan wrote:
People smoke cigarettes
A dozen or so replies and finally someone comes up with a good analogy. It isn't like climbing a mountain, or taking a bath. It is like smoking cigarettes. You know, stupid and dangerous. We didn't always know it was so stupid, but now we do. For a magazine to promote such a dangerous activity is really irresponsible.
Not quite (although I sense the sarcasm) tobacco kills a person very slowly whereas a block of ice falling upon your head does the job a lot faster. A better (the best) comparison is people swimming in a river in a known dangerous spot. Now if a "professional" swimmer drowns in a known dangerous place is that act considered to be as "stupid" than that of an "amateur" who drowns in the same place?

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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treeswarper
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PostFri Feb 02, 2018 7:18 am 
Yes.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Ringangleclaw
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PostFri Feb 02, 2018 9:27 am 
christensent wrote:
People on Mt. Hood in the glacier caves aren't called stupid but it's just because they have ropes and helmets so they look like they should be there, even though they're doing sometimes long free hanging rappels into ice caves and then doing challenging ice climbing down there which probably has significantly more objective hazard.
Don't think that's the Hood caves https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/visit-fast-disappearing-ice-caves-mt-hoods-sandy-glacier-180957506/

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Malachai Constant
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PostFri Feb 02, 2018 10:00 am 
As Fred would have said, "they are not of mountaineering interest". The problem is they are an attractive nuisance which has been engendered by Forest Service actions easing access. That is bad enough but when civilians bring their kids in it becomes worse.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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pcg
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PostFri Feb 02, 2018 12:19 pm 
Ringangleclaw wrote:
christensent wrote:
People on Mt. Hood in the glacier caves aren't called stupid but it's just because they have ropes and helmets so they look like they should be there, even though they're doing sometimes long free hanging rappels into ice caves and then doing challenging ice climbing down there which probably has significantly more objective hazard.
Don't think that's the Hood caves https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/visit-fast-disappearing-ice-caves-mt-hoods-sandy-glacier-180957506/
Actually I think that’s an accurate description. https://www.google.com/search?q=snowdragon+ice+cave&client=safari&channel=ipad_bm&prmd=imsvn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj156PD-IfZAhUUTGMKHY6FDuQQ_AUIESgB&biw=1024&bih=698#imgrc=FQANSdb-EjLdhM:

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Ringangleclaw
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PostFri Feb 02, 2018 1:57 pm 
You're right, I saw some photos of big time spelunking in ice caves in Europe, and I thought you were mistaken. Never the less, they were waterfall climbing under extraordinary conditions, and probably walked in and out, and didn't rappel in. The caves on Mt Hood are generally floored with rock.

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pcg
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PostFri Feb 02, 2018 3:34 pm 
The caves on Mt. Hood are rapidly collapsing. I took this picture of Snow Dragon in 2016, which was the last time I was up there. I assume that more has collapsed since then. The rock you see in the foreground is glacial moraine that was previously on top of the glacier (sitting on the roof of the cave).
Some might think that the most dangerous time to enter glacial caves is late summer, when everything is melting and when this picture was taken. However, this collapse occurred in January, under a heavy snow load on the roof. This is something to think about if you are traveling over a glacier, especially in winter/spring. Are you walking over the weak roof of a hidden ice cave? All glaciers are currently melting out and shrinking. Cave formation is a natural result of this process. I'm not an authority on glacial melting, but I'm thinking that weak roofs are just as likely or more likely to collapse under a heavy snow load in winter, than during a melting phase in summer. I think late fall, when everything is frozen hard, but before snow has begun to accumulate, would be the least likely time for a roof collapse. BTW I completely agree that the risks of mountaineering are not comparable to the risks of going in an ice cave. Going in an ice cave always involves unmanageable hazards. Mountaineering always provides the option to avoid unmanageable hazards (change route, wait for change in weather, turn back, etc.) and most mountaineers (not the ones who make the news) will do so. While those who choose to go in an ice cave may choose to do so in as safe a manner as possible, they are ultimately relying on fate, luck, odds perceived to be in their favor, or whatever to ensure their safety. You cannot predict when an ice cave will collapse, except to say that most will do so within a few years. Feeling lucky?

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Layback
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PostFri Feb 02, 2018 5:39 pm 
Are we assuming that Outside knows the risks associated with the ice caves? What if they don’t? Personally I’ve never read an issue of the mag. It’s always appeared to me to be sort of a Readers Digest of all things outside; it’s audience mostly newbies with a thirst for adventure but with little specificity. They cover everything from Lance Pharmstrong to “Death on Everest”. I doubt the editors know anything about ice caves. Personally I’ve never been to the ice caves. I doubt theyre much riskier than driving. People die from objective danger on roads all the time - ie drunk drivers. We don’t make as big a deal about these deaths as we should because sadly it’s a common occurance. The ice caves kill someone maybe 2-3x a decade but it’s big news because “more should be done”. I’m willing to bet that youre more likely to be killed by a drunk driver on the way to the ice caves than you are by going inside. Yet somehow we think it’s the role of the government to protect us from ourselves. You face objective danger all the time on the roads. Most of the time you are blissfully unaware of it. Would I go inside them? Probably not. I’ve been to way more exciting places and it’s obvious to me that a big wall of melting snow can be unstable. The risk to me isn’t worth the reward. I used to lead ice quite a bit in my 20s. These days that seems like an excessive risk too. Maybe in my 20s I would have taken the risk to go in the caves and I doubt I would have considered myself stupid or been perceived that way by my friends.

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Chief Joseph
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PostFri Feb 02, 2018 6:27 pm 
pcg wrote:
BTW I completely agree that the risks of mountaineering are not comparable to the risks of going in an ice cave. Going in an ice cave always involves unmanageable hazards. Mountaineering always provides the option to avoid unmanageable hazards (change route, wait for change in weather, turn back, etc.) and most mountaineers (not the ones who make the news) will do so. While those who choose to go in an ice cave may choose to do so in as safe a manner as possible, they are ultimately relying on fate, luck, odds perceived to be in their favor, or whatever to ensure their safety. You cannot predict when an ice cave will collapse, except to say that most will do so within a few years. Feeling lucky?
I respectfully disagree. There are times when ice caves are more stable than at other times, so choosing the best time to enter is indeed managing the hazards. Also one can further protect them selves by wearing a helmet and carrying other safety-survival gear such as a shovel, axe, bivy sack, etc. What you wrote about mountaineers being able to manage their risks better might be true on easy walk up type mountains, but in high altitude mountaineering, many times they are playing "Russian Roulette" even sometimes under the best conditions. I just read about that in Ed Viesturs book about his quest to climb all of the 8,000'ers in the Himalaya and on one of his failed attempts on Annapurna, he had just descended an avalanche shoot. One where risks are only managed by climbing through it quickly even though it's never completely safe, so you choose between bad, worse, and you are insane to continue. Yet many do. Just after Viesturs and his partner descended the gully, a climber with a team ascending, paused to take a couple of picture in that same spot. He was swept away by an avalanche and killed. Many times, the mountains manage the climbers, not the other way around. I don't believe that anyone who spends a substantial time climbing in the Himalaya's can survive without some luck in addition their skill, knowledge, and judgement.

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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christensent
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PostSat Feb 03, 2018 8:37 am 
Even climbing on Rainier, Baker, etc. takes an amount of luck to not get killed. If you're on a steep icy section and a crevasse opens on a small rope team and everyone gets pulled in, those people in general did nothing wrong and all die (you could argue they were unqualified to be there, but very few people in the world have the skill set to arrest a full crevasse fall on a 30-45 degree completely frozen icy slope on a 2-3 person rope team - something to think about when you're up there). Or the people who got buried by a giant serac fall on the Ingraham glacier in '81 did nothing wrong. Or the people who's entire guided party on Lib Ridge a few years back who died presumably did nothing wrong (or if not, were guided by a professional to do what they were doing). It's simply a dangerous game. There are actually numbers to back up mountaineering probably being more dangerous than going in the ice caves. One assumption has to be made, and that's how many people enter the Big 4 Ice Caves per year: I'm going to assume it's 25 people per average-day in the months of June - September (I'll bet it's actually a lot higher, but guessing low makes the math more compelling, plus there are week days to average in). That is 3000 people per year. There are statistics on the risk of various outdoor sports, and this article is posted by a pretty credible author: https://utahavalanchecenter.org/blog-what-risk-riding-avalanche-terrain If going in Big 4 were as dangerous as Himalayan high altitude mountaineering, then someone would die in Big 4 every 3 days (1000000/25 people/12000 millimort). If going in Big 4 were as dangerous as general mountaineering, then someone would die in Big 4 every 2 months (1000000/25 people/650 millimort). Instead, as best I can tell from historic news releases, someone dies in Big 4 approximately once per decade. Based on my assumption of 3000 people entering per year, that means 1 in 30,000 people die. That may sound like a lot, but 1 in 62,000 people die after driving a car for 8 hours. This means that taking a quick walk through the ice caves is only approximately 4 times more dangerous than the round-trip drive from seattle to the trailhead (to go back to the mountaineering comparison, low-altitude alpine mountaineering is approximately 100 times more dangerous than driving to the trailhead).

Learning mountaineering: 10% technical knowledge, 90% learning how to eat
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Chief Joseph
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PostSat Feb 03, 2018 11:53 am 
All that ^ is all well and good, but initially I was simply responding to Treeswarper's remark and others in prior discussions who refer to people who enter the ice caves as "stupid". And my point has been, that people who participate in other high risk activities, even though they know the risks, must also me just as "stupid", risk management aside. It just doesn't seem to me that there's really much, if any difference, when the end result is the same. I know most here are biased because there simply cannot be anything "stupid" in reference to mountaineering. And I think that should be all I have to say about that. dizzy.gif

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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RumiDude
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PostSat Feb 03, 2018 1:16 pm 
One big difference with Big 4 ice caves and mountaineering is that most mountaineering requires a certain amount of skill and considerable effort to get to the "dangerous" parts. Whereas almost anyone, including small children and babies, have easy access to Big 4 ice caves. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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PostSun Feb 04, 2018 10:05 pm 
The difference is success. Most people only visit and enter the ice caves once. The outcome is obviously pure luck (or unluck, as the case may be). With mountaineering, climbing, backcountry skiing, etc you have hazards that you try to mitigate. This takes some skill, but even if you have no skill, averages are in your favor. You can probably go out and ski any slope most days without an being caught in an avalanche, thus, you can probably be successful. If you are successful long enough, you consider yourself skilled. Eventually, though.. law of averages. You're probably runs out. You're gonna be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Is it skill or luck or a little of both?

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Kascadia
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PostMon Feb 05, 2018 10:54 am 
Khumbu Icefall looks a lot better on your resume, even if it is post mortem. . . . On a totally different note, the picture of the sky divers was remarkable, with oddly religious overtones.....

It is as though I had read a divine text, written into the world itself, not with letters but rather with essential objects, saying: Man, stretch thy reason hither, so thou mayest comprehend these things. Johannes Kepler
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Cyclopath
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PostMon Feb 05, 2018 11:08 am 
rossb wrote:
Stefan wrote:
People smoke cigarettes
A dozen or so replies and finally someone comes up with a good analogy. It isn't like climbing a mountain, or taking a bath. It is like smoking cigarettes. You know, stupid and dangerous. We didn't always know it was so stupid, but now we do. For a magazine to promote such a dangerous activity is really irresponsible.
Unless you think the Big Four Ice Cave was engineered to be as addictive as possible, I'm going to have to disagree about this being a good analogy. wink.gif Fact is 99.99999 % of the people who enter the Ice Cave come away unscathed. That's not true of cigarette smokers.

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