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Token Civilian
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PostThu Mar 08, 2018 10:01 am 
Admin Tom:
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Actually doesn't belong in the gun sticky either as it's not outdoor related (other than REI taking a stance). See guidelines in OP: https://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7972969
Sorry there Tom, you good sir are wrong. That article is in fact entirely outdoor related and very applicable to anyone interested in policy and programs that affect public lands and the politicking that goes on behind the scenes as it relates to that. That you locked that thread is quite sad. Pittman-Robertson funding pays for a ton of land that all can enjoy. As is noted in the article, the hiker type outdoor industry opposes a similar tax on backpacks, tents, etc. The outdoor industry (backpacks, tents, etc) knows they're riding the coat tails of those items and user groups that are subject to and pay the tax. The intent of the article is clear - to point out to the granola types that in fact they are being subsidized by their hunting / fishing / target shooting outdoors loving brethren, so the granola types might not want to be so quick on the boycott as they may end up indirectly hurting themselves. I find it ironic how supposedly not relevant to hikers this article is when it points out how the boycotted company is an active supporter of the Land and Water Conservation Fund - the very fund used to purchase the private property at Stevens Pass that threatened the PCT (note - I had a personal hand in insuring this particular transaction went through). It doesn't get any more relevant or local than that good sir. The subject article was at best only tangentially about guns - more about tax policy and the complex interaction of the various outdoor interests. Thinking its all about guns and not relevant to hikers speaks more to the frame of reference of the person making that assertion (Malachi and sadly, you sir). Its an article advocating reason and careful thought before acting, over the emotional knee-jerk do something, ANYTHING RIGHT NOW reaction (REI's). Clearly, we can't have carefully thought out responses considering the complex interactions of various user groups. If you want to know why people can't have intelligent discussion on a subject that is at best only tangentially about guns? Look in the mirror sir, because in this instance at least, there is one of the problems. Respectfully Token Civilian

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Waterman
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PostThu Mar 08, 2018 10:45 am 
The hikers,bikers and assorted outdoor enthusiasts should not forget that hunters, fishers and the ORV crowd share common interests. It was hunters who pressured Rep. Bishop into dropping a bill he was introducing that would have opened public lands for sale to private interests or corporations. You can't expect Patagonia to foot the bill for lobbeying our elected representatives. We all need to put pen to paper or call when the need arises. Boycotting REI is not going to influence "that which shall not be named" issue.

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,I took the one less traveled by. And that has made all the difference. Robert Frost
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Tom
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PostThu Mar 08, 2018 2:33 pm 
Token Civilian wrote:
If you want to know why people can't have intelligent discussion on a subject that is at best only tangentially about guns? Look in the mirror sir, because in this instance at least, there is one of the problems.
All you have to do is read the comments in that article, lol. Sorry if that doesn't inspire confidence. I looked in the mirror and saw someone with 18 years experience dealing with trolls. With the OP derailing a fatality thread waxing poetic about assault rifles and his choice of signature, perhaps there is another reason why can't we have intelligent discussion? https://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8026651

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Token Civilian
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PostThu Mar 08, 2018 4:58 pm 
So, you've failed to address any of the facts / arguments brought up in the article. Noted. You resort to attacking the poster, not the facts / arguments in the post. Note that the OP didn't have any trollish elements in the OP as far as I'm concerned..
Quote:
Read this article before you comment. Vista outdoors is not bad at all. The company contributes to a lot of good organizations involved in wildlife. I'd recommend digging deeper into this subject and seeing just how much Vista Outdoors contributes to good organizations.
This is a troll, how? Slap 'em down when guilty of actually trolling. As a general principle, even jerks can have occasional bouts of civility - to slap them at that time out of habit, yeah, not cool. Noted. You point out the mods failure to moderate misbehavior the avvy / Rattlesnake thread. That matters here, why? Noted. You discuss the comments at the article. The comments there are by those commenters, not by the ones here .....alas, we don't get to have the conversation here I suppose. Sure would be nice to have a conversation on the wisdom of dropping a company 'cause of one of the varied product lines they have. Guess not. Noted.

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JonnyQuest
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PostThu Mar 08, 2018 6:01 pm 
N Hiker (the OP of the post in question) suggested... "Read this article before you comment. Vista outdoors is not bad at all. The company contributes to a lot of good organizations involved in wildlife." So I read the article. One major theme is that products sold under the firearm and ammo brands of Vista are subject to an 11% excise tax, and the tax money gets routed via the Dept. of the Interior to the states for spending on habitat, wildlife, and public land. I'm not arguing against the dedication of such tax funds to worthy causes. Nor am I fooled into thinking the tax isn't passed on to the consumer. But the OP of the original thread calls out the contributions from these Vista brands. I'm not willing to give those firearm and ammo brands "contribution" credit for a mandated excise tax. How altruistic of them! shakehead.gif

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Tom
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PostThu Mar 08, 2018 6:51 pm 
The article doesn't deny the fact it's about gun control. It says anti-public-land PAC support was also a contributing factor in the boycott. Reality is it wouldn't be a topic of discussion without the former. The article concludes the gun control aspects divide hunters vs. hikers and sends them back to their separate corners to argue amongst ourselves, ultimately to be heard by no one. OP chose to warm up the discussion by trolling a fatality thread and stirring the pot with their sig before posting the stewardship thread. Gave the discussion no chance. But reality is the discussion comes down to gun control and politics. The fact this topic divides people is the reason we don't allow it (unless outdoor related). For example, discussing legislation relating to gun control in national parks would be allowed in stewardship. Discussion relating to the manufacture of assault rifles does not qualify, even if it involves a company that manufactures or sells outdoor gear.

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Token Civilian
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PostFri Mar 09, 2018 7:47 am 
That simply doesn't wash there Mod. Dodge n weave, dodge n weave, strawman, noting mods failure to mod in an unrelated thread again, dragging in stuff that the mod thinks is irretrievably linked when IMO it isn't as an excuse to not have the conversation. The attitude of the mods is noted. Can't have difficult conversations on the wisdom of linking stuff that isn't linked. Done.

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cascadeclimber
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PostFri Mar 09, 2018 8:24 am 
Anyone who still shops regularly at REI needs to look into how they treated Monika Johnson after her Novara-brand carbon fiber bike fork broke in half while she was riding the bike. She smashed out her teeth, had a concussion, and missed a ton of work. She asked REI to pay her medical expenses and compensate her for lost work. They refused. She sued. REI claimed they were not responsible and that she had to sue the Chinese manufacturer of the fork who REI contracted to make it. She won the suit. REI appealed. She won the appeal. REI appealed again. She died on Red Mountain. Her estate won the final appeal. She didn't live to be made financially whole. Oh, and she was an REI employee. Sally Jewell, who was later appointed (ineffective IMO) Interior Secretary, was in charge of REI at the time. http://kval.com/outdoors/investigation-rei-bike-frame-failures-result-in-lawsuits http://www.bicycleretailer.com/north-america/2011/02/11/rei-loses-liability-case-defective-fork Spend your money at places that stand behind their products and employees.

If not now, when?
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Tom
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PostFri Mar 09, 2018 6:33 pm 
Yes, the article spent a bit of time defending Vista. Whether Vista is a good company isn't really the issue. They manufacture assault rifles and that's ultimately why REI chose to stop doing business with them. If REI dropped them for another reason would would we be discussing Vista's virtues? Token Civilian, I'm not sure what else to tell you. I did find it interesting you chose to use terms like "hiker types" and "granola types". You appear to have glossed over the conclusion which was a call for unity rather than division.

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SwitchbackFisher
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PostSat Mar 10, 2018 2:31 am 
I never was a fan of REI in the first place, and could care less who they boycott. Token Civilian what is it about shutting a thread linked to a propaganda article that has you so bothered? It was clearly not in anyone's interest to continue with this debate on this forum.

I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
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Schroder
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PostSat Mar 10, 2018 9:47 am 
Token Civilian wrote:
the granola types
huh.gif down.gif

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Tom
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PostSat Mar 10, 2018 11:05 am 
wamtngal wrote:
I was surprised by the information provided in this article by the Outdoor Industry Association.
Whether or not you agree with the conclusion, this type of discussion would be allowed in stewardship. Pittman-Robertson has been referenced in a few stewardship threads (wolves).

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treeswarper
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PostSat Mar 10, 2018 12:21 pm 
Schroder wrote:
Token Civilian wrote:
the granola types
huh.gif down.gif
I was reading this and now wonder. Is this now considered to be derogatory? Must I stop referring to my Nordic skis as granola skis? We called them that in the 1970s fer heaven's sake. Must I buy various mixed grains instead of granola? nopity.gif

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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DIYSteve
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PostSat Mar 10, 2018 6:27 pm 
treeswarper wrote:
Is this now considered to be derogatory?
Yes, of course. Granola is for weaklings. Real men eat animal flesh for breakfast and wash it down with horse piss.

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PostSat Mar 10, 2018 11:15 pm 
DIYSteve I don’t drink Rainier for breakfast, or any time. Best.

Keep Calm and Carry On? Heck No. Stay Excited and Get Outside!
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