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RodF
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PostFri Mar 16, 2018 1:05 pm 
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Schroder wrote:
There's a big difference between a family going into a State Park for a picnic and a federal agency using the ground for military assault training.

If you've witnessed paintball games in State Parks or the shouts of wild Boy Scout troops echoing across a wilderness valley and building illegal bonfires to roast s'mores at Lena, Silver or Goat Lakes... you'd welcome the Navy.  They're a lot quieter and far more disciplined.  Polite, even.  Sir.

Dozens of Army rangers have trained in our wilderness Parks, but they carry self-warming MREs instead of building bonfires and avoid trails or ever being seen by anyone or even leaving a footprint for two weeks... that's the point of the bleeding exercise!  And you might not even know it?

Their aim to be invisible to the public... and they almost always are.  Which is why you don't know they've even been there for years, buddy.  In nasty weather in the middle of the night when no one in their right mind would be landing on that beach except in a wet suit.  Do they interfere with the family picnic on the same beach the next sunny day?  Not one bit.  Much ado about nothing.

Your heart's in the right place, though.  Please realize there's a reason the Navy trains here rather than in Idaho or Nevada where some would exile their training: mightn't it be a tad difficult to get a Navy ship up the Humboldt or Owyhee Rivers?  The Navy seem somehow connected to ships that float on or beneath salt water.  And our congressmen seem somehow to realize there's a connection to roughly 8,000 jobs and several billion $ in the Puget Sound economy every year.  So write them expressing your outrage, if you wish, but don't be too surprised if you get a noncommittal response.

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"of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt" - John Muir
"the wild is not the opposite of cultivated.  It is the opposite of the captivated” - Vandana Shiva
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SwitchbackFisher
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PostFri Mar 16, 2018 4:11 pm 
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RodF wrote:
Schroder wrote:
There's a big difference between a family going into a State Park for a picnic and a federal agency using the ground for military assault training.

If you've witnessed paintball games in State Parks or the shouts of wild Boy Scout troops echoing across a wilderness valley and building illegal bonfires to roast s'mores at Lena, Silver or Goat Lakes... you'd welcome the Navy.  They're a lot quieter and far more disciplined.  Polite, even.  Sir.

Dozens of Army rangers have trained in our wilderness Parks, but they carry self-warming MREs instead of building bonfires and avoid trails or ever being seen by anyone or even leaving a footprint for two weeks... that's the point of the bleeding exercise!  And you might not even know it?

Their aim to be invisible to the public... and they almost always are.  Which is why you don't know they've even been there for years, buddy.  In nasty weather in the middle of the night when no one in their right mind would be landing on that beach except in a wet suit.  Do they interfere with the family picnic on the same beach the next sunny day?  Not one bit.  Much ado about nothing.

Your heart's in the right place, though.  Please realize there's a reason the Navy trains here rather than in Idaho or Nevada where some would exile their training: mightn't it be a tad difficult to get a Navy ship up the Humboldt or Owyhee Rivers?  The Navy seem somehow connected to ships that float on or beneath salt water.  And our congressmen seem somehow to realize there's a connection to roughly 8,000 jobs and several billion $ in the Puget Sound economy every year.  So write them expressing your outrage, if you wish, but don't be too surprised if you get a noncommittal response.

100 percent right most people who are avid hikers against this probably don't realize what training is taking place primarily in Eastern WA with almost no real impact to speak of.

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I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
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treeswarper
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PostFri Mar 16, 2018 8:30 pm 
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I have heard that we were invaded by the Canadians in the late 1980s.  They helicoptered troops and landed  eek.gif in the Pasayton Wilderness.  The FS had to diplomatically chastise them for the invasion.

I have not heard if any fines were levied against the Canucks or if there was any resource damage.  They may have squooshed some grass.

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PostSat Mar 17, 2018 9:21 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
I have heard that we were invaded by the Canadians in the late 1980s.  They helicoptered troops and landed  eek.gif in the Pasayton Wilderness.  The FS had to diplomatically chastise them for the invasion. 

I have not heard if any fines were levied against the Canucks or if there was any resource damage.  They may have squooshed some grass.

from another post "Their aim to be invisible to the public... and they almost always are. "  Apparently a Fail by the Canucks.     Maybe it was the sound of cracking open a can of beer that gave away their position to the FS? 

hockeygrin.gif

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treeswarper
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PostSat Mar 17, 2018 10:20 am 
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I wonder if they unloaded the garbage can full of ice and beers out of the helicopter first thing?  I would expect the noise of that plus the helicopters gave them away.  I am thinking an outfitter turned it in to the FS.  Just a minor navigational error.

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RumiDude
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PostSat Mar 17, 2018 11:01 am 
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burck17 wrote:
100 percent right most people who are avid hikers against this probably don't realize what training is taking place primarily in Eastern WA with almost no real impact to speak of.

To be fair, the idea of user fees is not whether you have a significant impact on the land or if others are aware of your presence. The principle is simple whether or not you are a user. That is the issue, am I not correct? So if the military are users, then should they not also pay a user fee like the rest?

Rumi

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"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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RodF
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PostSat Mar 17, 2018 12:39 pm 
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RumiDude wrote:
The principle is simple whether or not you are a user. That is the issue, am I not correct? So if the military are users, then should they not also pay a user fee like the rest?

Fees may only be assessed as authorized by law.

For example, the Recreational Fee Demo Program and its successor Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act (REA), a statute passed by US Congress, authorizes USFS to assess fees only at developed recreation sites (details here).

REA prohibits the collection of "user fees" for use of undeveloped, dispersed sites throughout the national forest or within USFS wilderness areas, on- or in particular and most often off-trail.  However, if you believe there should be such fees, write your Congressman... but all of us may have to be prepared to pay them, as well.

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"of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt" - John Muir
"the wild is not the opposite of cultivated.  It is the opposite of the captivated” - Vandana Shiva
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RumiDude
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PostSun Mar 18, 2018 1:25 am 
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RodF wrote:
REA prohibits the collection of "user fees" for use of undeveloped, dispersed sites throughout the national forest or within USFS wilderness areas, on- or in particular and most often off-trail.  However, if you believe there should be such fees, write your Congressman... but all of us may have to be prepared to pay them, as well.

Well, I am not necessarily advocating the military pay user fees. Then again, in principle I don't think anyone should pay a user fee to recreate on public lands. I have said a small fee is helpful in the sense that it reminds us that we have some "skin in the game", so to speak. These should be very small fees.

The assessment of user fees are not based on the amount of impact but rather seems to be based on how feasible it is to collect. So whether or not other people are aware of their presence or whether we ever see any impact from their presence is not the basis of whether the military should be considered a user group and pay a user fee on public lands.

Also I would note that the military are not using these public lands for recreation, so I assume the REA does not apply to them. They are using public lands to train.

Rumi

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"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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FUN CH
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PostSun Mar 18, 2018 11:57 am 
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Remember that proposed plan to turn FS National Forest public land into military training areas didn't fly with public and was abandoned by the military.

The public and the laws that authorized the existence of  the National Forest basically said that these lands were set aside for recreation, not military training areas. It's kind of a moot point whether or not the military  should be paying user fees.

here's a couple of relevant links to what's going on in my area for trail improvements and policing climbers.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://methowvalleynews.com/2018/02/16/rco-grants-will-support-trail-campground-maintenance-projects/&ved=2ahUKEwinu9iWxfbZAhUpjFQKHWcPB7IQFjAAegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw27mJWeNtc8_lmIxn-A8I0N

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://methowvalleynews.com/2018/02/07/improvements-coming-for-liberty-bell-mountain-climbing-trails/&ved=2ahUKEwinu9iWxfbZAhUpjFQKHWcPB7IQFjADegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw0vlSDI6rG6--nT7KNmry7j

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jinx'sboy
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PostSun Mar 18, 2018 1:17 pm 
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Freeski wrote:
.....It’s kind of a moot point whether or not the Military should be paying fees.

The military training (landings) proposals in the methow and elsewhere in the E. Wash. a few years ago were ill conceived, and included some wilderness sites, which never would have been approved.  The military hadn’t done their homework.

Military training, however, is allowed by law and policy and does happen on National Forests and other Federal lands.  When and where allowed by Special Use permit, they would be subject to fees, when required by law.
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Gregory
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PostMon Mar 19, 2018 6:00 am 
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Rod writes,

"Their aim to be invisible to the public... and they almost always are.  Which is why you don't know they've even been there for years, buddy.  In nasty weather in the middle of the night when no one in their right mind would be landing on that beach except in a wetsuit.  Do they interfere with the family picnic on the same beach the next sunny day?  Not one bit.  Much ado about nothing."



Sitting in a drift boat late summer on the Nisqually River, bobber fishing kings thirty years ago+.My fishing buddy goes white as a ghost and points at the bank maybe thirty feet up the river.There was a soldier of some sort, in a wetsuit, face painted, caring a long gun, hiding up in the roots of a giant tree, just his head out of the water.When we busted him, he dropped underwater and disappeared into the slew we were fishing.Actually logical but freaky as hell.

Camping by myself on DNR land on the Olympic Peninsula.Stayed up late drinking by myself around the fire.Around eleven o'clock I hear a helicopter.Within seconds a big Huey sized helicopter is right over my head, blowing my camp and fire completely apart.I can just see the pilots and whoever else laughing away.

Driving up a road off the Sol Duc river Maybe twenty-five years ago.Was going to fill the Subaru with firewood for an extended steelhead fishing trip.All of a sudden two armed soldiers step, from the woods into the road and stop me, tell me to turn around and leave.I did.A couple of days later I learn in town that a military plane went down up that road and they were in the process af getting it out of the woods.
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