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MtnGoat
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PostTue Mar 20, 2018 2:10 pm 
The solution is quite clear. Since it's argued that dams damage the character of lakes in wilderness, and the dams predate wilderness, the decision to include them in the wilderness was a mistake. Redraw the boundaries and exclude the lakes from wilderness, return them to general National Forest status so the work can be done at the least possible cost and without offending supporters of wilderness who think the dams shouldn't be in wilderness areas. Where I see a minimal intrusion in wilderness character and a compromise for protection of the lakes vs their vital use in supporting agriculture in the Wenatchee drainage, dam opponents see non wilderness character and intrusion. Great. The way to solve this for the benefit of both interests is to remove them from wilderness, thus ending the problem of offending wilderness purists, and retaining them for their designed use, and likely a huge cost reduction in maintenance. . Win win.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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PostTue Mar 20, 2018 2:16 pm 
JVesquire wrote:
This is a piece of an overall larger issue related to the Icicle Work Group and whether dams should be upgraded, storage capacity in wilderness increased, etc. You got the district's perspective in the article. Opponents believe the need is related to wanting to build more development and golf courses. So there's more a lot more going on here than just an emergency declaration related to the Jack Creek fire.
Of course it's related to those things and growth. Opponents don't want more development and view people and growth as a problem. Then, in letters to the editor, they complain about housing prices.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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NacMacFeegle
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PostTue Mar 20, 2018 2:52 pm 
MtnGoat wrote:
The solution is quite clear. Since it's argued that dams damage the character of lakes in wilderness, and the dams predate wilderness, the decision to include them in the wilderness was a mistake.
down.gif The area still largely maintains its wilderness characteristics aside from the presence of the dams, and thus is deserving of protection as wilderness. As I've already stated, I'd advocate removing the dams whether or not they were in designated wilderness. Removing the dams won't destroy agriculture in the Wenatchee drainage - it would just mean long overdue changes to farming practices and restrictions on the blight that is urban sprawl.
MtnGoat wrote:
Opponents don't want more development and view people and growth as a problem.
The unsustainable growth of our population is a problem - a problem exacerbated by inexcusably poor planning and wasted resources.

Read my hiking related stories and more at http://illuminationsfromtheattic.blogspot.com/
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MtnGoat
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PostTue Mar 20, 2018 2:54 pm 
The changes are not long overdue, they're not due in the first place. The valley is a fantastic place for agriculture when water supply is properly managed. As for the 'blight', your preferred practices are an excellent way to increase housing prices.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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NacMacFeegle
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PostTue Mar 20, 2018 3:04 pm 
MtnGoat wrote:
The changes are not long overdue, they're not due in the first place.
Wrong - such changes are long overdue EVERYWHERE. Farming practices are in desperate need of reform, our population should have been capped half a century ago, and too much land has already been developed.
MtnGoat wrote:
The valley is a fantastic place for agriculture when water supply is properly managed.
Which is currently not the case.
MtnGoat wrote:
As for the 'blight', your preferred practices are an excellent way to increase housing prices.
Low and medium income housing is another problem entirely, and it has more to do with the vast income gap that is growing in America.

Read my hiking related stories and more at http://illuminationsfromtheattic.blogspot.com/
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MtnGoat
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PostTue Mar 20, 2018 3:15 pm 
I'm not sure why farming practices yielding such incredible gains over the last decades 'need' to be changed, other than in places perhaps where water is in truly short supply. The Wenatchee drainage is not such a place. As noted in the article, all that's required is capture and storage which has occurred just fine for many decades. You tell us it's 'currently not the case', yet other than repairs to a very basic dam, the system has been working quite well and the yields and growth attest to this. "Gaps" don't produce price increases, changes in demand and supply do. Your preferred policies make prices higher than they otherwise would be. It's interesting to proclaim concern for folks with fewer resources while championing measures which produce upwards price pressure, in this case, arguments aimed at restricting supply. There's always someone around to argue that there are too many of...someone *else*.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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treeswarper
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PostTue Mar 20, 2018 4:00 pm 
NacMacFeegle wrote:
it would just mean long overdue changes to farming practices
Could you please get more specific? What specific changes do you recommend? Dryland wheat? Cows? Sheep? Most everything I can think of needs water and that valley doesn't get enough rain or rain at the right times. I grew up there. I worked in the apple orchards to pay for school. My relatives had a small ranch with a few cows running out on an allotment. Their ranch didn't have much water so they got ONE cutting of alfalfa hay, then the water source dried up. They had a gravity fed system of water since there was no power on their place.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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treeswarper
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PostTue Mar 20, 2018 4:01 pm 
MtnGoat wrote:
There's always someone around to argue that there are too many of...someon
And when I read or hear their suggestions or wishes that a big epidemic would hit, I find myself thinking about the Rainbow Six book by Tom Clancy. The ending was fitting.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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NacMacFeegle
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PostTue Mar 20, 2018 4:04 pm 
MtnGoat wrote:
You tell us it's 'currently not the case', yet other than repairs to a very basic dam, the system has been working quite well and the yields and growth attest to this.
"yields and growth" are less important than long term sustainability.
MtnGoat wrote:
"Gaps" don't produce price increases, changes in demand and supply do.
The income gap results in a demand for expensive and wasteful homes. The result is rising housing prices that are too high for the poor and middle class.
MtnGoat wrote:
It's interesting to proclaim concern for folks with fewer resources while championing measures which produce upwards price pressure, in this case, arguments aimed at restricting supply.
If you restrict supply and demand at the same time, then you can prevent prices from rising. An economy based on endless growth is unsustainable. Better to restrict ourselves now than to be subject to far harsher restrictions as a result of our inability to restrict ourselves.
MtnGoat wrote:
There's always someone around to argue that there are too many of...someone *else*.
It's a fact that there billions more people on Earth than the planet can support long term. Any effort to avoid the necessity of limiting and gradually reducing the population, or to avoid reforming our wasteful lifestyles, increases the severity of the inevitable consequences of our over-exploitation of planet's natural resources.

Read my hiking related stories and more at http://illuminationsfromtheattic.blogspot.com/
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Stefan
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PostTue Mar 20, 2018 4:54 pm 
This would not be an issue or even discussed if there was low human population.

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Schroder
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PostTue Mar 20, 2018 5:13 pm 
These dams were not built for irrigation purposes. They were built to provide water at the correct temperature in the Spring for the Leavenworth fish hatchery. This is a photo of the Eightmile Lake dam:

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HitTheTrail
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PostTue Mar 20, 2018 7:13 pm 
Here are some in late fall at low tide. I was amazed at the exposed low water shoreline. It was covered with crayfish shells. No wonder the Mackinaw get so big in there.
October low water
October low water
Gate valve
Gate valve
Spillway
Spillway
Spillway2
Spillway2
high water wall
high water wall
low water inlet
low water inlet

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Randito
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PostTue Mar 20, 2018 9:00 pm 
Stefan wrote:
This would not be an issue or even discussed if there was low human population.
The population density of Washington is 103/sq mi France is 270/sq mi China is 375.5/sq mi India is 1,025.6/sq mi South Korea is 1,329/sq mi Dry land farming in central and eastern Washington was practiced a century ago -- it's limitations are one the reasons that Rufus Woods worked so hard at lobbying congress to build Grand Coulee and the Columbia Basin Project Grand Coulee did destroy one of the planets most productive salmon runs it is true -- but the crops grown in the 671,000 acres of irrigated lands grow far more food than the decimated salmon runs.

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NacMacFeegle
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PostTue Mar 20, 2018 10:36 pm 
RandyHiker wrote:
The population density of Washington is 103/sq mi France is 270/sq mi China is 375.5/sq mi India is 1,025.6/sq mi South Korea is 1,329/sq mi
The average size of a new home: US: 2,164/sq ft France: 1,206/sq ft China: 646/sq ft India 494/sq ft I couldn't find size of a South Korean home, but I'm almost certain it follows the trend. If we lived as efficiently as people do in any of those nations then we wouldn't have such a problem. However, the larger problem of long term sustainability would still remain, since even with minimal consumption of resources we are far beyond the maximum population the earth can sustain.
RandyHiker wrote:
Dry land farming in central and eastern Washington was practiced a century ago -- it's limitations are one the reasons that Rufus Woods worked so hard at lobbying congress to build Grand Coulee and the Columbia Basin Project Grand Coulee did destroy one of the planets most productive salmon runs it is true -- but the crops grown in the 671,000 acres of irrigated lands grow far more food than the decimated salmon runs.
Dry land farming and health salmon runs are far more desirable than higher irrigated crop yields. Aside from being a reliable source of food and income, Salmon are an integral part of the region's ecosystems. It would have been far better had we limited our growth instead of sabotaging future generations by living outside of the limits of what our environment can support long term.

Read my hiking related stories and more at http://illuminationsfromtheattic.blogspot.com/
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treeswarper
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PostWed Mar 21, 2018 7:20 am 
Stefan wrote:
This would not be an issue or even discussed if there was low human population.
It would still be an issue amongst some folks. Irrigation --the ditches and small dams/impoundments were constructed just a few years after the anglo settlers arrived in the area. It didn't have much to do with population, but with farming. Maybe not this specific dam, but others were constructed for irrigation. The water rights go back and back. Farming needed water and water was up in the hills. The climate of the valley and the sandy soils made for good fruit growing. Wenatchee and East Wenatchee used to have a lot more orchards "in town". Those are gone now, but the outlying areas are planted to the max. It's a huge industry, with low wages or piece wages. Orchards are labor intensive, and then warehouses are needed for packing and storing fruit to be shipped. When I grew up, you could always get work in the fruit if you wanted to work. I am still waiting on specifics from Natty on what kind of dry land farming would be doable in the Wenatchee area. Still waiting................................

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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