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treeswarper
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PostSat Apr 21, 2018 6:19 am 
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Some posts in this thread are good examples of why there is a dislike of Seattle area people on the eastside of the state.  I think you can figure out which ones.  Irrigation is life over here.  Taking that away would be like Microsoft, Amazon and Boeing all moving to China.  How would that affect the Pungent Sound area?  Would you take a hit?  Maybe you need a little more empathy for the folks that bring you fruit and food.  Or do you grow all you need yourself?  I think not on the latter as you'd have no time for hiking.  Now don't go feeling all hurt and insulted.  I simply want you to think a bit about how your food is grown and where it comes from.  It just doesn't appear in the food aisle.  Irrigation is a necessary evil-- kind of like all the "improvements" and paving of former old growth forest/riparian habitat for the population explosion in the Seattle area.

As for Grand Coulee Dam, I believe the rock walls that the concrete is tied into will erode before the concrete does, and that would be a long long time in human years.  I saw an article or maybe a NOVA like episode about it that mentioned it? 

Rural legend says that the amount of concrete used in the dam was so great that it is still curing deep inside.

The American Experience has a great documentary about the construction of Grand Coulee.  It was still on line the last time I checked.  Since the original construction, there was The Third Powerhouse added which was another biggish project.  I wish a Grand Fish Ladder or some kind of fish transportation could be designed to get the salmon migration around the dam and into the upper parts of The River again.

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CC
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PostSat Apr 21, 2018 9:58 am 
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RodF wrote:
CC wrote:
IPID irrigates 4263 acres...  You can't blame their costs on high maintenance.

CC, although Icicle and Peschastin Irrigation Districts are two separate legal entities, they have been sharing water and maintenance costs since the 1920s, and operate as one district.

Cashmere Valley Record newspaper wrote:
In the 8,000 or so acres of the Icicle and Peshastin districts, the irrigation water is mostly gravity fed, but the ditches and pipes are on steep hillsides, so a broken pipe or washed out ditch at the wrong time would be the equivalent catastrophe.

"It's scary to see all the hillside canals. It's a unique problem. It could be expensive if something happens. It's treacherous-type stuff. Not a lot of oopsey could cause a big problem," he said.

The steep terrain helps explains the budget for five year-round employees, five seasonal beat riders and another 10 or so temporary employees who help with maintenance in the spring and fall, Jantzer said.

"Most other districts use equipment for maintenance and repairs," he said. "But here, you can't get that equipment on the ditch banks. It must all be cleaned by hand with shovels. That's a lot of man hours."

CC wrote:
The majority of IPID users, as well as all of the COIC users, are residential.

That may be true.  State water law extend irrigation water rights to domestic (non-commercial) gardens and orchards up to 1 acre in size or for watering livestock.


Whoops, I forgot Pashastin's acreage.  So that means the alleged 3000 orchards would be an average of 2.7 acres each.

Again, like I said: Jantzer has a penchant for puffery.  He doesn't mention his use of  boy scout volunteers for maintenance. Presumably they get their Subsidization merit badges.  In any case, the obvious solution would have been to gradually replace the inefficient ditches with pipes over the years.  That way there would be low maintenance and even zero "oopsy" wouldn't be a problem.

I wasn't implying the residential use of irrigation water was illegal, although it is absurd.  The bottom line here (no pun intended) is that it is clear that the feds and state are going to be funding almost the entire cost of the IWG projects (projected $64M-$80M).  Of course the subsidization of agriculture, along with the extraction industries, RRs, et al, in the West was/is the norm; it is how the West was won (see, e.g., Richard White's "Its Your Misfortune and None of My Own").  That's not going to change.  My question is why taxpayers should be subsidizing irrigation water for residential English-manor-style landscaping in a semi-desert environment.

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CC
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PostSat Apr 21, 2018 10:23 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
Some posts in this thread are good examples of why there is a dislike of Seattle area people on the eastside of the state.  I think you can figure out which ones.  Irrigation is life over here.  Taking that away would be like Microsoft, Amazon and Boeing all moving to China.  How would that affect the Pungent Sound area?  Would you take a hit?  Maybe you need a little more empathy for the folks that bring you fruit and food.  Or do you grow all you need yourself?  I think not on the latter as you'd have no time for hiking.  Now don't go feeling all hurt and insulted.  I simply want you to think a bit about how your food is grown and where it comes from.  It just doesn't appear in the food aisle.  Irrigation is a necessary evil-- kind of like all the "improvements" and paving of former old growth forest/riparian habitat for the population explosion in the Seattle area. 

TS, when are you going to change your location from "don't move here" to the more accurate "just moved here"?

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treeswarper
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PostSat Apr 21, 2018 11:02 am 
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Ummm, I grew up in E Wenatchee and have ten plus years in the Okanogan.  Got great grandparents and aunts and uncles buried
in various parts of eastern Warshington   We raised alfalfa hay and I changed many a sprinkler. I worked in orchards to make money for school so I wouldn't have to make a career of "knocking" and picking apples. 

Gotta love it that now farming is called an extractive industry. 

Where do your veggies and fruits come from?  Do you drive on subsidized roads that are surfaced using rock and oil?  Is your car made of extracted metals? 

Set an example before telling others what to do.

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AlpineRose
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PostSat Apr 21, 2018 11:46 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
Irrigation is life over here.

Not gonna argue that, as it's true.  But.  I find it ironic, not to mention disingenuous at best and hypocritical at worst, that the so-called eastern Warshingtonians who not only are against but also resent what they perceive as gubmit interference nevertheless happily slurp up federally subsidized water.  Grand Coulee being perhaps the huuuuuugest example.

And I completely understand why they would dislike a so-called blue state liberal westsider pointing that out.
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treeswarper
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PostSat Apr 21, 2018 12:48 pm 
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AlpineRose wrote:
treeswarper wrote:
Irrigation is life over here.

Not gonna argue that, as it's true.  But.  I find it ironic, not to mention disingenuous at best and hypocritical at worst, that the so-called eastern Warshingtonians who not only are against but also resent what they perceive as gubmit interference nevertheless happily slurp up federally subsidized water.  Grand Coulee being perhaps the huuuuuugest example.

And I completely understand why they would dislike a so-called blue state liberal westsider pointing that out.

We all do not fit that stereotype.  Grand Coulee is kind of a CCC on steroids project.  Shall I point out how we benefit from the "subsidized" CCC projects such as a few trails and buildings?  Everybody uses  something that is subsidized.  Users do pay for that water and there are historical irrigation projects that were built by the people who wished to farm the desert in the 19th century.

I love fresh off the tree cherries.  Cherries that haven't somehow magically appeared in a plastic bag onto a store shelf.  My real cherries are grown using irrigation.  Hint:  so are the ones in the plastic .

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RodF
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PostSun Apr 22, 2018 11:17 am 
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CC wrote:
Again, like I said: Jantzer has a penchant for puffery.  He doesn't mention his use of  boy scout volunteers for maintenance. Presumably they get their Subsidization merit badges.

CC, have you ever worked as a ditch walker?  It's a very much like working on a WTA trail maintenance project.  I've done both as a volunteer.  I suggest you maintain a mile of ditch or trail, and rebuild a section of either one after a big rootball tipout.  It might moderate your own dismissive puffery of real work, sir?  If I may offer this respectfully, I find a few sore muscles improve my own mental attitude and are more productive for the common good than is any of your posturing here, so recommend it to you as well.  There is a lesson in it... and if Boy Scouts do it, maybe that's why?

CC wrote:
In any case, the obvious solution would have been to gradually replace the inefficient ditches with pipes over the years.

Across the state, including in IPID, the highest priority projects have already been done, and the remainder are now being evaluated.

The issues you've raised (use of public funds to increase in-stream flows to benefit fisheries by irrigation conservation) are valid ones.  It's all part of what the Icicle Working Group is trying to work out.  If projects are beneficial and pencil out, they may be done, and if they don't, they won't.

Realize that "water rights" under Washington law are public rights, not private ones.  That makes us unique among western states.  Ecology can (and does) mandate rationing during drought years, and can (and does!) mandate partial to complete cutoff of irrigation during extreme droughts to conserve in-stream flows.  (In my own personal case, I can get completely cut off and have to revert to limited well water, and I understand why, and that's OK.  And because that's the law, that's what will happen to most users in IPID too.)

Here in Sequim, we went through the same process 20 years ago that IWG is going through now.  Rather than everybody going to court (let alone arguing online in a hiking forum, of all places!), everybody sat down together and worked it out.

I just view your exaggerated and simplistic parody of the issues as counterproductive.  The issues are real.  There are better ways of dealing with all them cooperatively.

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"of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt" - John Muir
"the wild is not the opposite of cultivated.  It is the opposite of the captivated” - Vandana Shiva
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RodF
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PostSun Apr 22, 2018 1:01 pm 
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CC wrote:
I wasn't implying the residential use of irrigation water was illegal, although it is absurd.

CC, I'd like to ask you to look at the USGS annual stream flow graph for Icicle Creek.  It peaks at 2000 cfs in early June, is above 1000 cfs throughout May and June, and is above 200 cfs until mid-August, on average. 

IPID has a 117 cfs water right on Icicle Creek.  That's 1/10 of its flow in May and June, not a problem, right?  But that's half of its flow in mid-August, and begins to become significant. 

In short, there's plenty of water most of the time, and it's not "absurd" to put some of it to beneficial use, even though that benefit is more esthetic than commercial.  The critical time is September in drought years.  That's when Ecology's interruptable permit for residential use ia severely restricted or entirely cut off here, and I expect the same will be the case for IPID.

The ecological benefit of using irrigation water early in the season while a surplus is available is that it preserves the aquifer level for stream recharge and wells later in the season.  There have been many proposals to use irrigation water to recharge aquifers directly (although none have been funded in WA to my knowledge), but at least this accomplishes that indirectly.  (As did ditch leakage, before piping, by the way!)

Again, here in Sequim, we went through this process 20 years ago.  (Our Dungeness River is half the size of Icicle Creek, as were it's irrigation withdrawls, and our 16 inches/yr rainfall is similar.)  The result was a big increase in xeroscaping and use of drought-tolerant native plants. 

Grass doesn't need to be green in August - it goes dormant and comes back fine after it rains.  The same is true of hay.   But fish do need to swim, and pear orchards do need to ripen, and they get priority.  This can best be worked out without the indignant hyperventilation, please.

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"of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt" - John Muir
"the wild is not the opposite of cultivated.  It is the opposite of the captivated” - Vandana Shiva
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RandyHiker
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PostMon Apr 23, 2018 6:02 am 
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Born in Seattle, grew up in the 'burbs , think irrigation is great and that Grand Coulee dam and Columbia Basin Irrigation project are some best investments ever made by the federal government.

Those that think the Columbia and Snake should still flow free so first nation people can live by fishing and hunting should read Steven J Gould's "Guns, Germs and Steel"
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Ringangleclaw
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PostMon Apr 23, 2018 2:10 pm 
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RandyHiker wrote:

Those that think the Columbia and Snake should still flow free so first nation people can live by fishing and hunting should read Steven J Gould's "Guns, Germs and Steel"

Jared Diamond had a book by the same name.

Could you expand on your thesis?
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CC
cascade curmudgeon



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cascade curmudgeon
PostMon Apr 23, 2018 8:48 pm 
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RodF wrote:
CC, have you ever worked as a ditch walker?  It's a very much like working on a WTA trail maintenance project.  I've done both as a volunteer.  I suggest you maintain a mile of ditch or trail, and rebuild a section of either one after a big rootball tipout.  It might moderate your own dismissive puffery of real work, sir?  If I may offer this respectfully, I find a few sore muscles improve my own mental attitude and are more productive for the common good than is any of your posturing here, so recommend it to you as well.  There is a lesson in it... and if Boy Scouts do it, maybe that's why?

Don't pull that "you must be an effete liberal who has never done any physical work" crap on me, sir.  I'll match rural, hardscrabble, working-class, roots credentials with anybody on this site, sir. I was digging ditches at age 12, sir.  And I've been building trails for 20 years, sir.  In fact I built some yesterday, sir.  And have a  (west coast) nice day, sir!

The puffery comment obviously refers to Janzer's penchant for gross exaggeration (e.g., "we are operating at 100% efficiency"), not to the people doing the actual work.

RodF wrote:
Across the state, including in IPID, the highest priority projects have already been done, and the remainder are now being evaluated.

The issues you've raised (use of public funds to increase in-stream flows to benefit fisheries by irrigation conservation) are valid ones.  It's all part of what the Icicle Working Group is trying to work out.  If projects are beneficial and pencil out, they may be done, and if they don't, they won't.

Baloney and baloney.  If IPID has done any major upgrading it's from 19th century technology to early 20th century technology.  They are still a century behind the Israelis. And COIC is worse.

IWG pays lip service to conservation, but their main goal is increasing storage in the alpine lakes.  The environmental groups that were in IWG opted out because it was clear from the get go that the fix was in.

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PostMon Apr 23, 2018 9:12 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:
Ummm, I grew up in E Wenatchee and have ten plus years in the Okanogan.  Got great grandparents and aunts and uncles buried
in various parts of eastern Warshington  We raised alfalfa hay and I changed many a sprinkler. I worked in orchards to make money for school so I wouldn't have to make a career of "knocking" and picking apples.

Now I miss the chain saw stories.

treeswarper wrote:
Gotta love it that now farming is called an extractive industry.

Reread my post.  Note the words "along with."

treeswarper wrote:
Where do your veggies and fruits come from?  Do you drive on subsidized roads that are surfaced using rock and oil?  Is your car made of extracted metals

Again reread my post.  You have totally missed my point. Plus you are conflating public services with for-profit entities.

treeswarper wrote:
Set an example before telling others what to do.

I am.  I told people not to use subsidized water to water lawns.  I live in Chelan county and I don't have a lawn and I don't water it (sic).

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sooperfly
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PostWed May 09, 2018 12:09 pm 
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KPQ website on a reported possible breach happening if water rises an additional 3ft.  Water is already flowing approximately 3ft over the dam and continuing to rise.

8mile dam update from KPQ
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Ringangleclaw
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PostWed May 09, 2018 1:07 pm 
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Going to take a big helicopter and a pretty small excavator to get to the site. Columbia owns a Chinook, and I’m sure the military could help
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RandyHiker
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PostWed May 09, 2018 3:07 pm 
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Ringangleclaw wrote:
RandyHiker wrote:

Those that think the Columbia and Snake should still flow free so first nation people can live by fishing and hunting should read Steven J Gould's "Guns, Germs and Steel"

Jared Diamond had a book by the same name.

Could you expand on your thesis?

You are correct about the author name -- now go read the book.

Thesis: If you follow the line of thinking that peoples of European origin had no business moving into the Americas and displacing the prior human inhabitants -- then modern humans should have stayed in Africa -- since Europe and Asia were already populated by Neanderthal peoples.
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