Ah, OK. I guess I wasn't really making a distinction between navigating and route finding. The term handrail is a new one to me as of a few days ago and I could even be using the term navigation incorrectly.
that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
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that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
Per most generally accepted definitions:
-- Mountain navigation is the science of ascertaining the direction of one's objective and generally traveling in the correct direction of travel towards the objective
-- Routefinding is the art of finding, selecting and staying on a viable path of travel towards one's objective
As I noted in a prior post, I think of navigation as a left brain activity and routefinding as a right brain activity. Navigation fundamentals can be taught in a classroom setting. Routefinding is learned only through experience. IMV, mastery of any discipline is involves merging the right brain and the left brain into a single process of thinking, and that rule of thumb applies to mountain travel.
Re handrails, you (Brian Curtis) are a very experienced high lakes fisherman. IME, use of handrails is usually the best way to access a high lake, connecting high lakes and egress therefrom. Contrast other terrain, e.g., complex jumbled moraine systems with no stream courses, where there are no reliable handrails and thus (assuming there is no distant landmark in view) continually checking bearing and heading is indicated. Failing to do so can result in getting turned away from an efficient line to the objective and sometimes results in tragedy. Those of us who have followed the wrong fall line have learned just how off track one can get while seeming to be on route. Getting off the correct fall line has resulted in many fatalities in the PNW mountains, and each fatality could have been avoided with proper pre-trip mapping and taking compass bearings at know points.
Re those claiming a innate "sense of direction," it's less of a factor than you might think. Scientific tests with sufficiently large samplings confirm and reconfirm that, absent visual or tactile clues, nobody can walk in a straight line nor in their originally intended direction of travel for more than a few minutes. Every test subject soon walks in circles, zig zags or veers far off a straight line in a direction other than that originally intended. Experienced travelers do no better than the inexperienced in such tests.
OK, thank you for that. I think that for the purpose of this discussion it is appropriate to mix route finding and navigation together. I would, however, argue that route finding concepts can be taught in the classroom but need to be practiced in the field, just as navigation concepts do. As I indicated in my post, there are certainly places where a compass bearing is your best option, but here in WA they are less common then places where route finding skills are better.
And I count things like contouring at a specific elevation, or angling between elevations, as a sort of handrail, even though it is aided by an altimeter. Does that count as a navigation skill or a route finding skill? And is there a term we should use when we talk about the combined skills?
And as for an innate sense of direction I certainly do not claim to have one. Put me in flat country on a cloudy day and I will just go in circles. I hate that feeling of having no way to orient. I'm only really comfortable if I'm in the mountains with a topo in hand.
that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
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that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
We are generally in agreement. Routefinding concepts can be taught in a classroom, but nobody can learn routefinding without actually doing lots of it -- and occasionally making mistakes and analyzing their mistakes (e.g., I got off track by failing to top out over this moraine or this side draw threw me off).
As with all disciplines, noobs come into mountain travel with a range of different brain mappings (no pun intended). Some noobs more easily pick up routefinding "from the ground up," while others more navigation-oriented and work better with more frequent referral to the map. IMO, it's important that one work on the processes that are less intuitive to them. I know a handful of people who claim "I never need a compass" and IMO those people would get much better at navigation and routefinding by using a compass. Others seem overly tied to the map and compass, and those people would be served by letting go of the map & compass for awhile and looking around at the terrain. I also have observed over reliance on GPSr to stifle development of navigation and routefinding skills. If I were teaching navigation to noobs, I'd start with map & compass only field trips and later introduce GPSr as a supplemental tool.
Just to be clear, I don't quite fit either of the profiles that you describe. I rarely use a map and compass, instead I use a map and altimeter. I most certainly need to consult the map frequently. The only difference is that my primary navigation tool is an altimeter, not a compass. Well, these days I use a GPSr, but I always have my altimeter ready for a quick glance.
that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
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that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
I use all 4, to wit: map, compass, altimeter, GPSr, but what combination I use is dependent on terrain, visibility and presence of distant landmarks. In other words, I use the best tool for the circumstances. If the objective is reached via a drainage, draw, ridge or other defined topological feature and I'm ascending or descending, I mostly use altimeter/map (after I've confirmed I'm in the correct place). In less defined (e.g., jumbled) terrain altimeter/map is often worthless. Examples are the the maze of moraines S of Mt. St. Helens or portions of the Beartooth Plateau.
FWIW, my GPSr is usually turned off. On a typical day of off-trail travel in complex terrain, my GPSr will be turned on a total no more than 2 hours.
Yes, absolutely, I use all 4, too. But of those four items I find that the compass is by far the least used so it makes me wonder why everybody always talks about map and compass skills when map and altimeter skills are more useful more often.
But now you've got me curious about where you were on the Beartooth plateau that you found the compass more useful. I've crawled around a fair portion of the Absoroka-Beartooth and never wanted to use a compass. That probably means there is another section I need to visit And I always like comparing notes.
And I forgot to add in my previous post that I wanted to spotlight your remark about analyzing and learning from your mistakes. That is so important.
that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
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that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
GPS is most useful when navigating a maze of old roads when some are abandoned some deteriorating. The same thing can be said in areas where there are braided trails. It gives you an indication of where you are and which way to turn, it also makes backtracking easy . Compass is most useful on the water, snow fields, or desert. Altimeter is frequently useful in Cascades or Olympics away from coast here there is a lot of relief providing you frequently recalibrate. Before GPS once did the Trinity loop under deep snow with altimeter and compass.
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
Ok, moving along, a few personal experiences.
Once when coming down from a peak , at dark, after a 18 hour day. We could not find camp which was locaited in dense forest , I had a gps waypoint and we had a memorised altimeter reading. But the gps evidently had a hard time locking in and or the oringinal waypoint was off , the altimeter was off due to changing weather. So we searched around in circles for over a hour and just when I was about ready to give up and bivvy , we found camp, horay!!!! There was a stream of water about 200 yards in the forest away from camp, I could have put a marker there to make better sure to find camp. Next time I will.
It is really nice to have a gps to find your way in darkness when coming down from a peak and I have done this several times. However, once while coming down we had 3rd to 4th class cliff bands in among trees, so we had a unexpected shiver bivvy, then came down the next day. In generial, especially in summer one can bivy with fairly light gear, so if getting lost or a chance of falling off a cliff it is better to wait for daylight.
Once as a very small child my brother and I were playing in an unknown area, it got dark we walked a ways on a dirt road and found a tower and stayed there until dad collected us. It was so long ago I forgot about it.
Once coming down a peak , I did not have a gps, but I placed some cairns on the way up. It got dark on the way down, I think I could of navigated back to camp, but my partner insisted on a different way. We had a cold bivvy until morning until we had to navigate back up the valley to camp.
Another time coming down, no gps , three of us wondering around at night looking for camp for over an hour in a open rocky valley before we found it. Even in an open area it is hard navigate by headlamp, it is next to impossible in dense forest. Even in daylight it can be hard to navigate in dense forest without a gps, hence the flagging many use.
Many times , all the time, one loses the trail and I backtrack to a known point to start over to find the main trail usually it is a short distance to regain the right way. Rarely I mark the right direction on trail intersection with sticks to use on the way back.
I usually start gps tracking when I get to an area of any chance of getting lost.
I use everything with a moderate to good skill level when out on a back country trip. Local woods I use only back tracking most of the time(99%). If one has fear to use only back tracking for navigation in local woods they should increase their skill in my opinion.
WaState it seems you have gotten lucky many times and that your really should work on your planning. I have only had 2 experiences where I had to navigate in the dark. One I we had a large group and got a very late start. Another I cut my finger deeply at camp and had to go back to trail head to get stitches.
Regardless of your skill level if you are going off trail you should never put yourself in a situation where you don't have all your gear and have to navigate in the dark. That is poor planning.
Also someday when someone is on relatively the same path as you doing the right thing pulling down your flags as I go will you be able to find your way out of the woods ok? If not I urge you to practice your other navigation skills more.
I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
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I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
And I count things like contouring at a specific elevation, or angling between elevations, as a sort of handrail, even though it is aided by an altimeter. Does that count as a navigation skill or a route finding skill? And is there a term we should use when we talk about the combined skills?
A classic handrail is McClure Rock on the Muir Snowfield. Particularly, in coming down from the higher terrain, one aims for McClure Rock and then uses the rocky ridgeline as a handrail, being sure not to cross to the east where avalanche terrain and cliffs will eventually be encountered, but rather staying right, at the base of the steepening slopes of McClure Rock as one navigates towards Panorama Point and two potential exit routes from the point. If one fails to keep McClure Rock's ridgeline and steepening slopes in view you run the risk of descending too far right and dropping into cliffs and avalanche slopes of Pebble Creek.
Of course, nowadays one could just follow tracks or use a GPS but back in the day the Muir Snowfield was a significant challenge in poor visibility. The use of compass headings and the altimeter are valuable above McClure Rock to Anvil Rock and Camp Muir. Which brings me to a story. A group of us had gone skiing in the early 80's to Camp Muir. From Camp Muir we quickly descended into a foggy whiteout. I am sure we had a map but I don't recall having a compass. By feel and memory we skirted Anvil Rock's steep slopes (using them as a handrail) and then dropped through the morainal humps on the ill defined ridgeline that lead to the more pronounced ridgeline of McClure Rock that divides the lower Muir Snowfield from the Paradise Glacier. By using McClure Rock as a handrail we reached Panorama Point and descended towards Alta Vista. When we finally got visibility near 6400' we were within 100' of where we thought we were. We stopped to communicate and make choices a good number of times on descent.
On another occasion, and the biggest adventure of my life, we were climbing in the Niut Range across from Mt. Waddington. It was around September 21st and the weather was fine. Two of us set out from camp to climb a new route that ascended steep ice and moderately difficult rock on The Sisters north face. In late afternoon, after climbing about fifteen pitches, we reached a col about seven rock pitches below the summit. We bivouacked in bivouac sacks before climbing the next day the final pitches on superb rock. From the summit we could see far out towards the Pacific and could faintly see the seemingly insignificant approach of high clouds. Within a couple of hours, by the time we arrived back at our bivouac, a snowstorm had raced in and our camp was in a whiteout. We figured if we attempted to descend our ascent route we would either be avalanched off the steep ice or stranded on steep rock. The only other choice was to descend for us which was the unknown south side of the mountain. We knew vaguely that the original ascent of The Sisters was from the south and was class 3. We found our way down to bivouac beneath a large rock at the bottom of a small icefield. It continued to snow.
The following day we began a traverse around the west side of The Sisters. We had a map but it was only a 1:250,000 contour map that was largely adequate only for naming peaks. The following day we began a descent or traverse in a whiteout but ended up climbing (apparently because it got colder and the snow deeper) until we reached a ridgeline cliff out. We backtracked a bit back then descended to near the snowline. Mosley Creek (which is a large river draining to the east from the Waddington area) could be heard far below. We contoured the terrain near the snowline, which was just above treeline, in a whiteout all of that day. We used Mosley Creek and the vegetation and snowline as a handline. We bivouacked again beneath a boulder and continued our traverse the following day. Finally, the weather cleared in the late afternoon and we were able to dry our gear by hanging it on burnt snags. We also found abundant blueberries which was the only food we had had since the first night. The following day we followed a fault which ran nicely through several ridges and, counting cirques that we crossed (from the map) saw a large glacier that we were sure was the Bench Glacier at whose top our camp was. As we ascended the Bench Glacier another storm rapidly approached and we raced to reach our tents, unsure if our companions would be there or the tents still standing. They had left a note that they had gone for help which was a days walk. But the tents were there and there was plenty of food. That night it snowed another 14" (all together there was 3' of new snow) and in the morning a helicopter came in with the Constable expecting to do a search for bodies.
So here are a couple of different examples of using handrails. Nowadays, I keep a lower risk profile and you wouldn't find me on the Muir Snowfield in a whiteout or climbing new routes in the Coast Range.
You bring it up now?
While we are at it,
Is it "Backtracking" one word or "back tracking" two words?
Is there a graduated scale for brain development so we can recommend the length of the trip for each child? I have raised 5 and at 11-13 the long range planning part of the brain starts hogging all the blood flow so the short term memory part goes virtually dormant.
Are there any neurologists on the site?
Can we get a quick sinopsis of the stadges of develupment and the pitfalls of relying on memories at each stage?
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And I always like comparing notes.
And I forgot to add in my previous post that I wanted to spotlight your remark about analyzing and learning from your mistakes. That is so important.
. Compass is most useful on the water, snow fields, or desert. Altimeter is frequently useful in Cascades or Olympics away from coast here there is a lot of relief providing you frequently recalibrate. Before GPS once did the Trinity loop under deep snow with altimeter and compass.
While we are at it,
Is it "Backtracking" one word or "back tracking" two words?
Is there a graduated scale for brain development so we can recommend the length of the trip for each child? I have raised 5 and at 11-13 the long range planning part of the brain starts hogging all the blood flow so the short term memory part goes virtually dormant.