Forum Index > Trail Talk > Survey on sexual harassment and assault in climbing (closes May 6)
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DIYSteve
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DIYSteve
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PostWed May 09, 2018 10:47 am 
MtnGoat wrote:
You're detailing precisely the cases in which I already agreed the use of power is abusive.
You significantly changed your position. You previously required "explicit" use of of the leader's position as an element of wrongdoing. Now, you seem to agree with me that misconduct can exist if the leader relies on implicit threats of retaliation as pressure to submit to the leader's advances.

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DIYSteve
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DIYSteve
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PostWed May 09, 2018 10:56 am 
Ski wrote:
I am also as baffled as Steve apparently is that people don't seem to understand this.
Huh? The Harvey Weinstein thing started a national dialogue. A person must have his or her head in the sand or in manifest denial to not be aware of that.
Ski wrote:
I'll take it one step further: it's not presumed, it's one of those "is so" deals.
Such absolutism is a step too far. Or maybe you don't understand the concept of presumptions. If the student unequivocally invites an advance by the instructor, it may well be proper for the instructor to hit on the student. A presumption (as defined under the law) would place a heavy burden on the instructor to prove that the student invited the advance. Your proposed absolutist standard vs. imposition of a presumption is necessary to reflect the complex reality of the world. Many successful relationships have arisen from a circumstance where one person had a position of power or influence over the other, yet nobody acted improperly.

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Ski
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PostWed May 09, 2018 12:37 pm 
DIYSteve wrote:
Or maybe you don't understand the concept of presumptions.
Certainly not in a legal sense, no. No doubt my lousy opinion is based on my real-life experiences in a work environment, where fraternization among employees created all kinds of problems for the company, the details of which are far beyond the scope of this discussion. Ultimately it became necessary to impose some hard and fast rules and fire a lot of people - at one store the entire staff (of about 9 people) except Arnie, the only one of the lot who wasn't dipping into the communal pot.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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cambajamba
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PostWed May 09, 2018 12:42 pm 
Well now I want a whole spinoff series about Arnie and his misadventures in the ways of office life.

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Ski
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PostWed May 09, 2018 12:45 pm 
Arnie was happily married and went home to his loving wife. The rest of the crew were young single guys who didn't use their best judgment, and one young girl who caused us all a lot of grief (not to mention serious staff shortages at our other locations while we hired and trained new people.) That should be a clear enough picture.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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cambajamba
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PostThu May 10, 2018 8:25 am 
*Seinfeld bass plucking*

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radka
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PostThu May 10, 2018 3:46 pm 
FYI: Per popular demand, the survey has been extended till May 31, 2018 Also, I have been contacted by an editor at KUOW. They want to discuss sexual harassment and assault in climbing and hiking and are interested in hearing people experiences. If you have been affected by these issues and would be interested in sharing your experience, you can PM me and I can connect you with the editor/reporter when they are ready to work on this issue. Thanks.

The future is yard birds
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Tom
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PostFri Sep 28, 2018 10:32 pm 
Why joke about it then?

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Pahoehoe
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PostFri Sep 28, 2018 10:48 pm 
I hate the term "hit on". Its vague and it opens the door to the whole I cant be interested in someone? I cant ask someone out? Don't you like compliments bullsh##.

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Wastral
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PostSat Sep 29, 2018 12:12 am 
Layback wrote:
I was at one point sexually harassed by a marmot. I thought I was all alone at Peggys Pond. So rather than change in my tent I changed outside. As soon as my pants came off I heard relentless whistling. In all seriousness. I’ve heard of women getting hit on in climbing classes and I found it to be creepy and disrespectful. Happens a lot and it’s up to everyone to speak up and say something.
What the heck? Where/When exactly is the right time to flirt then? Jeepers. Work? Stupid bars? Where you can't hear a damned thing, and the only people there are interested in drinking/partying or a one night stand? Sorry, no, neither of those is conducive to getting to know someone and wanting to marry. At least in a climbing class your perceptions of who they are is based on several days worth of getting to know each other. Since when is getting "hit on" AKA Flirting, a bad thing? What are women? Nuns now? Since when is being asked out on a date a bad thing? You aren't asking someone for marriage. Grow up mewling babies(both male/female) there is vastly more to a relationship than sexual attraction.

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Pahoehoe
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PostSat Sep 29, 2018 7:01 am 
Wastral wrote:
Layback wrote:
I was at one point sexually harassed by a marmot. I thought I was all alone at Peggys Pond. So rather than change in my tent I changed outside. As soon as my pants came off I heard relentless whistling. In all seriousness. I’ve heard of women getting hit on in climbing classes and I found it to be creepy and disrespectful. Happens a lot and it’s up to everyone to speak up and say something.
What the heck? Where/When exactly is the right time to flirt then? Jeepers. Work? Stupid bars? Where you can't hear a damned thing, and the only people there are interested in drinking/partying or a one night stand? Sorry, no, neither of those is conducive to getting to know someone and wanting to marry. At least in a climbing class your perceptions of who they are is based on several days worth of getting to know each other. Since when is getting "hit on" AKA Flirting, a bad thing? What are women? Nuns now? Since when is being asked out on a date a bad thing? You aren't asking someone for marriage. Grow up mewling babies(both male/female) there is vastly more to a relationship than sexual attraction.
Thanks for proving my point. Lots of people suck at displaying interest in another person in a polite, non threatening way and lots of women have been conditioned to be "nice" at all costs so having to interact with a man who is "hitting on you" can be extremely uncomfortable. There is also a thing in our culture where men are taught to keep asking, eventually the answer might change. You can certainly talk and be friendly and get to know someone you are interested in a climbing class, but it would be best to keep it friendly until the class is over unless you are pretty sure its a mutual attraction. I certainly wouldnt want to put my life in the hands of the dude I just rejected

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mbravenboer
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PostSat Sep 29, 2018 12:00 pm 
To be a little bit blunt about it, I think most men absolutely have no idea how it feels to continuously be the subject of others sexual or at best romantic interests. I think the only reasonable way to imagine unwanted interest is this: imagine you joined a course, it's all men, and several in the group are gay. Now imagine that while you just want to learn something in your course, the gay participants in the group are obviously being overly nice to you, comment on how great your butt looks, etc etc. That's pretty uncomfortable, right? You feel like prey to a predator? Well, that's how women feel in these situations. Sorry to involve gay people in this comparison, but it's really important to understand that men have absolutely no notion of how it feels to be the subject *all* *the* *time*.

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Pahoehoe
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PostSat Sep 29, 2018 12:10 pm 
Thats pretty much it. Women dont get very many places to just be. We just want to be. Not the object of someones affection. Not looking for a husband or a date or a baby daddy. Not a fing unicorn in the group of men. Just a human being. If you like us, talk to us like a human being. Chemistry will show itself if its there. You don't need to "hit on" anyone.

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Chief Joseph
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PostSat Sep 29, 2018 2:51 pm 
Pahoehoe wrote:
I hate the term "hit on". Its vague and it opens the door to the whole I cant be interested in someone? I cant ask someone out? Don't you like compliments bullsh##.
That's a good point. I would say that it would depend upon the female as to what defines "hit on". Some might find that a guy simply asking to meet for lunch one time is being hit upon, while for others it might be defined as being asked repeatedly and harassed. I see no harm in showing interest in a female and asking her out in a polite and gentlemanly manner and also backing off when the answer is "no".

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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Pahoehoe
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PostSat Sep 29, 2018 6:43 pm 
I feel like Joseph's posts from the locked thread needs to be replied to so I pasted it below.
Quote:
I suppose there is a fine line between a discussion about harassment on the trail and politics - in light of recent events in DC. On a hiker page on FB someone posted, "I don't fear animals, or weather. I fear... men. I finally overcame this fear and went on a solo hike." People cheered her for this, but I was like, "its not really fair to label all men as predators." Imagine if someone posted "I fear (insert racial group)." Its unfair blanket statement. I posted words to that effect (respectfully, not snarkily) and was suspended from posting further
And
Quote:
That's fine - all women (and men too) should be wary of hiking solo due to the danger of there being creepsters on the trail. But that does not make it fair to imply all men are predators and make such blanket statements. Again, we would not tolerate blanket statements based on race. So why should we tolerate such statements based on gender?
Enough men are predators that it warrants fear. If you want to compare it to race, the fair comparison would be black people fearing white people. Would you tell a black man he should not fear a white man in the 1950s in the southeast usa? What about black men today fearing the police? Every 98 seconds, an American is sexually assaulted. And every 8 minutes, that victim is a child. Meanwhile, only 6 out of every 1,000 perpetrators will end up in prison. 1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime (14.8% completed, 2.8% attempted). About 3% of American men—or 1 in 33—have experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime. Women have every right to fear men.

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Forum Index > Trail Talk > Survey on sexual harassment and assault in climbing (closes May 6)
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