[monorail]

[Pahoehoe]

Aww geez. Wastral adds so much value to this community!

[Tom]

What are your value added contributions?

[Brushwork]

[fourteen410]

Awareness of said opinions would only be a gift if they were earth shattering and new, but they are not. Any woman who has worked in a male dominated industry or has been subjected to harassment in the climbing community already knows this. We do not need the aforementioned "gifts" to be aware of this. For those who actually do require this gift of awareness (which I can't imagine there are many): If you have just now become aware, what are you going to do about it when it's displayed in our forum? I said it earlier, but it seems that I need to repeat it: I don't believe in silencing opinions simply because I don't agree with them. I have long been a proponent of allowing the other side to have a voice (see my posts from earlier this year imploring women to not push away male allies). But I do believe in shutting down derogatory remarks that have zero place in today's world. Allowing them to be spoken without consequence sets a disturbing precedent.

[Pahoehoe]

[fourteen410]

[DIYSteve]

[fourteen410]

[DIYSteve]

Radka is welcome and encouraged to contribute to this thread

[Tom]

[Pahoehoe]

So if you ate willing to bake pies in other threads hate speech can be over looked. Awesome!

[Tom]

No, of course not. But good job drowning out any reasonable discussion that is occurring here if that's your goal.

[Frango]

OK...to try and bring this back around to some attempt at a reasonable discussion, fwiw, here are my thoughts. Gender equality is one of those visceral reaction topics - certainly on the list of “things not to be discussed at the family Thanksgiving dinner”. This really makes me sad - I am lucky that I had the example of a kickass mother, and 2 seriously kickass grandmothers before her to show me that it is totally possible to blaze my own trail without losing what it is that makes me a woman. I count among my closest friends, a group of men who are supportive, caring and would go to the wall for me in an instant - they all know it goes both ways. They are also a little clueless sometimes when it comes to stuff like this. I had a conversation recently with one of the guys who was honestly baffled at why I was so very angry over the recent SCOTUS hearings. He wasn’t being demeaning, he is the opposite of whatever Wastral is trying to portray himself as; it just is that without the experience of being a woman in this world, he doesn’t understand. However, after I stopped ranting and explained my POV to him, while he still doesn’t know what it’s like to be a woman in this world anymore than I know what it’s like to be a guy who has to navigate these waters, he did understand,and more importantly, he supported me. I think that’s what most reasonable women want: the men in their lives to acknowledge that it isn’t all wine and Helen Reddy songs (did I just date myself badly here?),and that it truly is a struggle for women still. While lip service is paid to equality between the sexes, it still is women who are ‘shrill bitches’ when men are ‘assertive’, who are ‘over emotional’ when men are ‘justifiably angry’ and who still have to take all the steps to keep themselves from being accosted by men when out on the trail (see how I brought this all back round to hiking?) And we want to be listened to, not just heard. We are not yammering, and we sure as hell aren’t just talking to hear our own voices. We have a point, a valid point and it should be acknowledged - not just noted, but acknowledged. And here I will note - feelings have as much value as facts. My experience is my experience. No one can invalidate or deny my experience, any more than I can deny or invalidate theirs. I don’t think we ever will convince the 10% of the population that is too entrenched in their sad chauvinistic ways that women are capable of independence, god forbid we even discuss free thought, but you know what? That’s OK. I’m willing to leave that group to their thoughts...and educate their children and grandchildren in the true realities of the world. Let’s face it - there are way more DIYs, Treeswarpers, Kims, Skis and yes probably even the Toms in the world than there’s are Wastrals...and thank every god I can think of, every day that I have the people I do have in my life.

[Wastral]