[Jake Neiffer]

"They found that predatory raptor birds were four times rarer in areas of plateau where wind turbines were present, a disruption that cascaded down the food chain and radically altered the density and behaviour of the birds' prey" https://phys.org/news/2018-11-farm-predator-effect-ecosystems.html

[Ski]

nwhikers member MtnGoat cited a similar article on this issue just a few days ago. I am baffled.

[Bedivere]

[DIYSteve]

This issue requires some perspective. Bird deaths by turbine blade strikes are are a tiny fraction (<0.01%) of bird deaths caused by collisions with human structures or motor vehicles or by other human-triggered causes (mostly cats). U.S. Fish & Wildife estimates that collisions with wind turbines cause the death of between 140,000 and 328,000 birds per year in the U.S. Source: https://www.fws.gov/birds/bird-enthusiasts/threats-to-birds.php The American Bird Conservancy finds that some raptors are benefited by wind turbines, which provide an opportunity for a high perch for hunting. Source: https://abcbirds.org/wind-energy-threatens-birds/ Contrast the 140,000 - 328,000 bird deaths by collisions wind turbines against other causes of bird deaths (annually in U.S.): -- 5,000,000 to 50,000,000 killed by "towerkill," i.e., strikes with communication towers or supporting cables per the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Towerkill -- window strikes: between 365,000,000 and 988,000,000. Source: U.S. Fish & Wildlife -- motor vehicle strikes: 60,000,000 to 80,000,000. Source: Id. -- power lines (collisions and electrocutions): 130,000,000 to 174,000,000. Source: Id. -- domestic and feral cats: 1.3 billion to 4 billion. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_predation_on_wildlife#Birds per U.S. Fish & Wildlife and Smithsonian Conservation Biology Institute -- oil pits: between 500,000 and 1,000,000. Source: U.S. Fish & Wildlife -- poison: 72,000,000. Source: U.S. Fish & Wildlife -- Structures/industry total (excludes cats): between 453,140,438 and 1,136,827,586. Source: U.S. Fish & Wildlife Share of wind turbine deaths as part of all industry & structure-related deaths: 0.033% Share of wind turbine deaths as part of all human-related deaths (industry, cats, window strikes): <0.01% These numbers are of accidental deaths of wild birds and exclude millions of birds killed intentionally by hunters and domestic birds

[Alpine Pedestrian]

Steve - thank you so much for posting that.

[Malachai Constant]

Steve is correct. Those who are against sustainable energy and conservation will grasp any argument to make a political case. It is about making an argument not preserving birds.

[DIYSteve]

To clarify: The 500,000 to 1,000,000 oil pit wild bird deaths per year are those by fracking and tar sands waste pits. Bird deaths from oil pits in Canada are likely higher, but reliable data is not available. The environmental cost of fracking in Canada is largely unknown because the oil industry controls provincial legislatures.

[Randito]

I think the OP article doesn't claim that the predatory birds were killed by wind turbine blades. Rather that there is much less hunting by those birds in wind turbine areas. They might be dead or they might be avoiding the area. I'll bet there are also large disruptions of ecosystems for various forms of fossil fuel extraction and use. E.g. "Tar sands" in Alberta completely devastate all life in vast areas, but the public would never know because the Alberta government has made it illegal to make aerial photographs of the tar sand mines.

[DIYSteve]

[Jake Neiffer]

I missed the part where I (or someone else) said anything positive about tar sands. The downstream impacts seem of more concern than the dead birds themselves, as Randy alluded to, but windmills do kill birds nevertheless. PacifiCorp Energy pleads guilty in bird deaths in Wyoming

[DIYSteve]

[Ski]

[thunderhead]

[Jake Neiffer]

Ski- I've never seen a house cat kill a golden eagle. So many assumptions on motivations. I'm not suggesting to can wind power because it kills birds, but raptor deaths are legitimate to consider nonetheless. Steve- do you assume that anyone who posts about a problem with wind power is ignorant? I have an engineering degree and worked in the nuke field for years. I have a decent grasp on the pros and cons of various types of electricity generation. Another legitimate concern is subsides. They are still orders of magnitude higher for renewables. The money that was used for wind power subsidies resulted in CO2 emissions. For some reason, this is often ignored. For recent info on subsidies on a $/MWh basis, see page 24 of this paper: https://energy.utexas.edu/sites/default/files/UTAustin_FCe_Subsidies_2018_April.pdf

[Jake Neiffer]

Very true. What got me thinking about this recently actually is gophers. I farm now and just from memories as a kid there seems to be a whole lot more gophers locally then there used to be. Now I obviously have no proof for this, but I've talked to other locals who seem to believe there has been an uptick in population as well. We live close to many windmills, in fact Shepard Flat used to be the largest wind farm in the world, it may still be. But I'm probably at least 10 miles as the crow flies from the nearest windmill. So it may very well be too far away to have any impact. I'm not suggesting to do away with wind power because of gophers either.