[coldrain108]

[Cyclopath]

[Ski]

A lot of it is a state of mind. I can walk out into my back yard at 3 in the morning and hear only the BNSF drivers coming up the tracks between Titlow and Salmon Beach and find solitude.

[BarbE]

No problem finding solitude even off I-90. Just get off the beaten track!

[christensent]

[silence]

Sad ... https://www.rei.com/adventures/trips/weekend/olympic-backpacking-mountain.html

[Ski]

^ NOLS has been taking groups up into the Olympics for years.

[silence]

yeah ... the last NOLS I read about was remote mountaineering training .. into Queets Basin and onto the Humes. Of course, there are other wilderness CUAs in the Olympics (mostly climbing and traverses, like the Bailey), but quotas in Seven Lakes Basin are already maxed out.

[Ski]

I've run into NOLS groups a couple times up there. One group went up the East Fork Quinault, took a sharp left turn at the upper end of Enchanted Valley (straight up the ridge), cut over toward the northwest, and then dropped into the Queets from Lake Beauty. Packers and guide services are all part of the package. Personally I'd prefer it was local talent doing it so the money stays in-State, but we don't get to make those decisions. In that respect maybe it's better that REI's doing it than somebody else, because somebody is going to fill that market niche. (Looks like a hell of a gear list though. Guess they want to be prepared for anything.)

[silence]

Personally, I'd prefer it was our local Boy Scouts using those group sites (assuming REI is restricted to using those) and keeping the area under wraps.

[Ski]

Are the Boy Scouts licensed concessionaires with the National Park Service? Paid guide services have been players in National Parks for a long time. This is nothing new. They just charge more money now. (Although those prices on that REI page looked pretty reasonable compared to the dollar figures I recall from looking at the NOLS website.) Besides, maybe REI's guide people will keep their charges from carving their names into the rocks at Ozette.

[silence]

The Boy Scouts are non-profits but presumably paying fees, like the rest of us (not sure if REI is paying more, I think that's discretionary). The Ozette Scouts, sad as that was, learned their lesson, and I have to hope the leaders are more attentive now. A few years ago I spent a weekend with the Snohomish Co Scouts helping to teach them LNT. Follow up: The Scouts pay all the same fees and liability insurance, except for an additional 3% of gross sales (since REI is commercial). So at $1049/pp x a max of 10 peps (as at least 2 should leaders) that would be a max of $314 per trip .. is that really worth it to you? Esp, when they are taking away precious spaces (for regular folks or other non-profits) during the most desirable time to be up there. Also, since they snagged 4 prime weekends they obviously didn't have to depend on the quota/reservation system like everyone else. Plus, as I said before, REI is actively promoting this area on FB.

[Ski]

I guess I'm not really sure exactly what your objection is here. Again, guide services and packers have been taking people into the Olympics since before it was a National Park, so this is nothing new. My father took groups of Boy Scouts (25 or 30 kids in a group) across the Olympics many times during the 1940s and 1950s. (He wasn't paid - I don't think they had the licensing requirement back then, and certainly not the current group size limit.) The money paid by concessionaires and packers to the Park Service is more money for them to spend on maintenance and repair of infrastructure. Again, I'm not really sure exactly what the problem is with this, especially considering that by imposing the group size limit and having (hopefully) more conscientious guides and packers the impact on the landscape is much less currently than it was in the past. There are all kinds of places to go on both the Olympic Peninsula and elsewhere in Washington State - the "High Divide" area isn't the only place one can go. I hear the #23 Road between Randle and Trout Lake finally re-opened - there are all kinds of out-of-the-way destination sites down there, none of which have quotas or require reservations. Very few of the destination sites down there see crowds of people, either - I could probably count on one hand the number of hikers I met on trails between Randle and Willard, and still have fingers left over. As for "advertising on Facebook" - in former times those ads would have been printed in local newspapers, but nobody reads newspapers anymore.

[silence]

Sorry, the 3% of gross sales is considered a cost recovery fee ... pretty sure that doesn't go to maintenance or repair. Cost Recovery (16 U.S.C. § 3a). The NPS may recover from the permittee all agency costs incurred in processing the application, and monitoring the permitted activity if the request is approved. Applicants should be told early in the process that they may be responsible for reimbursing the park for all costs incurred by the park in processing the application (even if the application is denied) and monitoring the permitted activity and subsequent site restoration if necessary. I think my objection is pretty clear in my previous posts. But, since it's really not about solitude (because the quotas in High Divide already fill up quickly) and I know how to find that elsewhere in the Olympics ... maybe I should've posted this on the Leave No Trace - Social Media thread? I guess I'm just pissed that a commercial enterprise is getting special treatment over everyone else, and promoting the area (look what happened to the Skyline after Backpacker ran a story on it). If you check out Mt Rainier, their general plan is much more restrictive when it comes to CUAs so they don't conflict with others' use as much (except maybe on the DC), plus they don't even charge for wilderness backpacking permits (like most NPs).

[Ski]

By definition, any guide service or packer is a "commercial enterprise". Some are larger than others. How are they getting "special treatment"? I have no idea what happened to the Skyline Trail - I've never been up there. I'd posit that if REI managed to get licensed as a guide service, they'll most likely make a concerted effort to assure that all of that "LNT" stuff is followed to the letter - otherwise they'll jeopardize their business relationship with the Park Service. In that respect I'd prefer it was an outfit like REI as opposed to some of the yahoo horse-packers I've run into up there who knowingly hauled in gear that included hunting bows and arrows, double-bladed axes, and the idiots who brought them along. The population here has increased considerably during the last few decades. The whole "outdoor" game has become big business. There's no putting that genie back in the bottle. As with all things, though, this may well be a cyclical thing. Fads and trends have a way of coming and going. And again, the "High Divide" area isn't the only place in the Park, and certainly not the only place in the National Park system that has a quota system.