Forum Index > Trail Talk > Three "hikers" die in fall at Shannon Falls
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cambajamba
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PostMon Jul 09, 2018 3:50 pm 
I hear you, but we all have a line, right? How do you feel about the poachers who were just eaten in Africa? Is that more monstrous because the symbol of nature being destroyed was an animal? I posit that extinction of life and destruction of geologic features fall into the same category. They remove from the earth permanently that which once was. I would never advocate for the death penalty for those who deface pubic property, including natural resources...but when someone's careless attitude, already responsible for plenty of damage, results in more damage, this time to their own persons....well I'm not going to get all broken up about it. Same with the poachers. I laughed when I heard. If I could high five the lions I would. I don't consider myself a moral authority, nor do I adhere to any strict doctrine but I know right from wrong. These guys did sowed destruction, and destruction was what they harvested.

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AlpineRose
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PostMon Jul 09, 2018 4:51 pm 
Death does not automatically ennoble someone. Certainly not these three. Nobility is earned by the actions performed in life.

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RumiDude
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PostMon Jul 09, 2018 5:13 pm 
AlpineRose wrote:
Death does not automatically ennoble someone. Certainly not these three. Nobility is earned by the actions performed in life.
I have not read of anything these three and others in their group have done that dehumanizes them either. Saying Rest In Peace is not ennobling them, just a human response about the unfortunate death of other humans. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Ski
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PostMon Jul 09, 2018 8:08 pm 
keep things in perspective. cutting switchbacks on trails, or walking off the boardwalk at Yellowstone is not the stuff of Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy. save the torches and pitchforks for more important stuff.
cambajamba wrote:
How do you feel about the poachers who were just eaten in Africa?
You are equating poaching the African White Rhinoceros with walking off the boardwalk at Yellowstone to the Grand Prismatic Springs? SRSLY?

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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cambajamba
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PostTue Jul 10, 2018 7:20 am 
Yes, seriously. The fact that others don't is what's crazy to me.

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kiliki
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PostTue Jul 10, 2018 9:12 am 
I'm a little disappointed in the news coverage of this. The Vancouver papers quoted local officials/law enforcement that had some lukewarm statements about the danger of the falls ("we hope people will be prepared when they are here"), but that's it. I would have liked to see some stronger statements about what they were doing and why it was dangerous. I suppose they have to balance that sort of thing with sensitivity about the deaths. Given these folks have a million Instagram followers it could have been a learning experience for some.

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Foist
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PostTue Jul 10, 2018 11:11 am 
I'm with Rumi. But I will say that I rolled my eyes at the "gofundme" page the group started. With all the views, followers, advertising, and merch, are they really a worthy charity case? Or is the group now just monetizing the death of these three, on top of everything else? The cynic in me says this might be the best thing that ever happened to the survivors of the group. Or am I overestimating the profitability of youtube/instagram stardom? Press reports seem to vary on the subject.

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neek
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PostTue Jul 10, 2018 11:58 am 
$13K raised so far in 4 days. Doesn't seem like a whole lot. People have spent money on sillier things, I suppose. They were certainly not the first to defile Yellowstone's features. To be depressed, see Things Stuffed Down Yellowstone's Geysers. Lots of folks deserve to die. No I wasn't sad about the rhino poachers. You have to draw the line somewhere. People will always disagree about where to draw the line. If this event convinces any "followers" not to take a similar path, then at least some good will come of it. Let's hope the "Celebration of Life" party involves at least a little bit of serious reflection.

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RumiDude
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PostTue Jul 10, 2018 2:47 pm 
Foist wrote:
But I will say that I rolled my eyes at the "gofundme" page the group started.
*le sigh* I agree! In this particular case, it was their friends so THEY should finance any needed funds themselves. I pretty much roll my eyes at all gofundme requests. It is a license to not take responsibility. Even one's that are legitimate needs should have a modest goal and end as soon as the goal is met. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Ski
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PostTue Jul 10, 2018 5:44 pm 
Foist wrote:
Or am I overestimating the profitability of youtube/instagram stardom? Press reports seem to vary on the subject.
Foist, I would suggest you do some reading on Logan Paul, who has managed to make his YouTube channel the 48th most popular channel (by number of subscribers) on YouTube. At age 23, he has already figured out how to monetize his "vlogs" and is apparently making pretty good money, in spite of his antics resulting in his being cited and ejected from Yosemite National Park and being vilified for uploading a video of a dead man hanging in Japan's "Suicide Forest". I do not know if the three young people killed in BC were making the kind of money that Logan Paul has, but it would appear the profitability is definitely there for the taking. == Making a foolish choice to swim in a pool directly above a 100-foot waterfall, or carving your initials on top of the petroglyphs at Ozette, or using acrylic paint to paint cartoons on rocks at several National Parks is not, by any stretch of the imagination, on the same level of egregiousness as poaching Rhinoceros on a South African wildlife reserve, and to equate those actions diminishes the outrageousness of the poaching. Personally, I take a rather dim view of poachers, particularly those who are wantonly killing endangered species simply for the purpose of removing some appendage for monetary gain or a trophy shot. (FTR: I really don't give a damn what the purpose was for removing the tail of the animal, or whether or not the claim that there's "too many" elephants is valid; after viewing the videos of the elephants painting, the claims of their having been "tortured" notwithstanding, it is clear these are, by definition, sentient creatures who have at least a rudimentary concept of depth, perspective, and proportion and I am absolutely baffled as to why anyone would justify killing them "just for sport". The argument about "over population" is bogus at best - we don't make a practice of killing humans because there are too many of them. But this is tangential to the subject at hand here.) Back to the statement above about "deserved", which I find outrageous at best myself - and that's coming from a man who's managed at one time or another to piss off almost every member of this site - I'll defer to Edwin Arlington Robinson's "Exit" again and say that in the end, it is best to remember "May we who shrank to find him weak remember that he cannot speak." We will all be in a box below the altar some day. Would you have others say you were "deserving" of your end?

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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cambajamba
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PostWed Jul 11, 2018 8:46 am 
Well first off I'll be dead, but not in a box or beneath any altar. So yeah, judge me all you want, there won't be any deity doing it so by all means take the wheel. The point I'm making is that our world would seem to be improved by the absence of these men, regardless of how you rate the permanent damage to national treasures that they caused. Prove me wrong without saying "all life is precious." Every one of us that has lost someone to the mountains knows that nature doesn't feel that way, it's a purely human platitude.

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PostWed Jul 11, 2018 9:09 am 
A question for anyone, rhetorical of course: If you found yourself on the scene of a life threatening accident, or event, and if you could save one or more people without unduly endangering yourself, would you do so? An easy answer if you know and like/love/don't hate the person(s), or they are family/blood. What if you disagreed with their lifestyle, politics, practices, or morality, and knew this at the time? Who is so great that they can judge whether another person's life has value? And value, or no value, to whom?

Nature exists with a stark indifference to humans' situation.
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Ski
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PostWed Jul 11, 2018 10:02 am 
On two different occasions, I pulled two different kids out of the Nisqually River who were pinned in logjams. Pretty scary stuff. In both instances, they damn near drowned me. We're not allowed to discuss politics here, but there's at least one political figure I'd be more than happy to allow to drown. And meth users... definitely let them drown. That's a no-brainer.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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RumiDude
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PostWed Jul 11, 2018 1:27 pm 
Schenk wrote:
Who is so great that they can judge whether another person's life has value? And value, or no value, to whom?
+1 Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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SwitchbackFisher
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PostWed Jul 11, 2018 10:15 pm 
Ski wrote:
keep things in perspective. cutting switchbacks on trails, or walking off the boardwalk at Yellowstone is not the stuff of Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy. save the torches and pitchforks for more important stuff.
cambajamba wrote:
How do you feel about the poachers who were just eaten in Africa?
You are equating poaching the African White Rhinoceros with walking off the boardwalk at Yellowstone to the Grand Prismatic Springs? SRSLY?
Probably the first time I've ever agreed with anything ski has ever said lol.. I have to add those of you celebrating this instance in my opinion are worse that these guys were. The kind of disrespect toward another human life shown here should be reserved for the true monsters of our world. I think the only person who I felt the world was better off without who was not some homicidal maniac is Fred Phelps.

I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
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