Forum Index > Stewardship > Wolves cause researcher to climb tree in Okanogan Co. - Heli sent in for rescue
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harrymalamute
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PostMon Jul 16, 2018 11:49 am 
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gb wrote:
wildernessed wrote:
but no doubt the wolves were pissed and aggressive

Where do you get this? Wolves howl and bark. No doubt this is speculation.

It was apparently terrifying to the researcher. But whether that terror was justified is the question.


Ask the school teacher whether she was terrified:2010 aslaska school teacher wolf attack The forensic details.

The wolves were not in defense of den or kill site, they were traveling as a pack on the same road as the teacher and she jogged right into them. the report details how they circled her, knocked her down drew blood and continued their attack with multiple wolves involved.

I'm thinking the rescued researcher is counting her lucky stars she had a tree to climb and her cell phone got reception.

I don't hate wolves. But I do understand and appreciate how they think and how they operate. after all Harry Loves and adore's their kissing cousin the Malamute.

I'm not a wildlife biologist but I do get drunk howl at the moon and sleep outside with big furry canines.

It won't bode well for the wolves if the uninformed/unprepared masses go traipsing through the wilderness thinking the possibilities aren't there because they haven't been for the last hundred years, well except for the last 10 years.

Times are a changing and here's your sign. if that researcher had a dog with her, she would have been up a tree watching her hiking dog disemboweled and torn to bites while she watched.

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BigBrunyon
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PostMon Jul 16, 2018 1:30 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:
Convince me that my dog won't be killed should we stumble into a pack territory. 

It will be killed. That's the way the world works. Bigger dawg eats not as big dawg!!

Basically, here's the deal: A lot of people and a lot of dogs have lived and died in this world to date. One person and their pet are totally insignificant in that picture.

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gb
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PostMon Jul 16, 2018 2:18 pm 
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harrymalamute wrote:
The wolves were not in defense of den or kill site, they were traveling as a pack on the same road as the teacher and she jogged right into them.

Certainly jogging through a Cougar's territory triggers a predatory response. Maybe the same response is triggered in Wolves. That wouldn't be particularly surprising. Personally, I wouldn't be jogging or bicycling where I know there may be bears, mountain lions or cougars. There was the case near Canmore recently where a bicycler was killed by a Grizzly Bear when the human ran into the bear. Big surprise.

Bear jam
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harrymalamute
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PostTue Jul 17, 2018 12:36 am 
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gb wrote:
Code:
Certainly jogging through a Cougar's territory triggers a predatory response

Really, The only point I'm trying to make is that out of all the apex predators. cougar, bear, wolf. only the canid travel in packs and pack mentality is a hole different game than cougar or bear.

In bear country wear a bell or make noise, carry spray keep a clean camp and your good to go unless the bear is habituated.

cougars. solitary stalk from behind, usually young males without full skills kicked out of mothers pride desperate for food attack that jogger or mtn biker. A number of person"s have bet or fended off a cougar attack off.

wolves. A single or pair is likely to be curious maybe shadow or study from a distance. Now stumbling into a pack that is not deter'd for what ever reason. den, kill site or they are just traveling because they can easily range 100 square miles. and if your the dumb ass that did the stumbling.. then it does matter.

which leads to this: BigBrunyon wrote:
Code:
One person and their pet are totally insignificant in that picture.

maybe in a hypothetical world they don't matter and or your conscious just doesn't care about your fellow man and his dog but to many it does matter.

even pro wolf people should care because all negative wolf activity ultimately hurts the wolf.

We should stop pretending such encounters are not going to be more frequent in the future as the numbers go up and educate the public as to the possibilities and how they should travel in the wilderness with wolves

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gb
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PostTue Jul 17, 2018 5:26 am 
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harrymalamute wrote:
maybe in a hypothetical world they don't matter and or your conscious just doesn't care about your fellow man and his dog but to many it does matter.

even pro wolf people should care because all negative wolf activity ultimately hurts the wolf.

We should stop pretending such encounters are not going to be more frequent in the future as the numbers go up and educate the public as to the possibilities and how they should travel in the wilderness with wolves

This, whether you intended it or not is a bit of a misrepresentation of fact and serves as a scare tactic. Reality is that the habitat will reach a carrying capacity for wolves as it does for all predators. Washington's wolves are even now only slightly growing and will soon reach such a maximum capacity; but Yellowstone now as 20 years ago supports about 100 wolves.
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PostTue Jul 17, 2018 8:37 am 
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The "carrying capacity" for Yellowstone National Park would be limited by the population of available prey species; ungulates and other small mammals.

Wild ungulate populations (and populations of other wild game species) combined with domestic livestock production in Washington State would provide an unlimited supply of prey.

How do any conclusions drawn from population studies at Yellowstone logically apply here?

cattle population of Washington State: 1,100,000

cattle population of Yellowstone National Park: 0

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RandyHiker
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PostTue Jul 17, 2018 9:05 am 
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Ski wrote:
The "carrying capacity" for Yellowstone National Park would be limited by the population of available prey species; ungulates and other small mammals.

Wild ungulate populations (and populations of other wild game species) combined with domestic livestock production in Washington State would provide an unlimited supply of prey.

How do any conclusions drawn from population studies at Yellowstone logically apply here?

cattle population of Washington State: 1,100,000

cattle population of Yellowstone National Park: 0

Wyoming has a cattle population of 1,270,000, Montana 2,550,000 -- The wolves in Yellowstone don't care about park boundaries.

Explain why you think biology operates by different rules in WA than in MT and WY
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PostTue Jul 17, 2018 9:12 am 
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The wolf population inventory above presumably applies only to the wolf population within Yellowstone National Park.

If the wolf population inventory above applied to the whole of the states of either Wyoming or Montana, you would have a question.

It doesn't.

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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RandyHiker
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PostTue Jul 17, 2018 9:24 am 
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The wolves don't care about the park boundaries.  There are many more packs in WY and MT.

What evidence do you have that wolf populations in these states is utilizing the
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unlimited supply of prey

to support an unlimited population of wolves?

Especially since the supply of cattle in WY and MT is far more "unlimited"
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pcg
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PostTue Jul 17, 2018 9:58 am 
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Wolf safety...
http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/species/livingwithwildlife/pdfs/wolf_safety_brochure.pdf
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PostTue Jul 17, 2018 10:38 am 
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Randy, if you want to go down into some tangential rabbit hole, you go right ahead. I'm not interested.

Sorry the facts don't agree with your narrative.

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PostTue Jul 17, 2018 10:43 am 
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Ski, in a previous post in this thread wrote:
Possibly a bit more inter-agency communication/coordination might have prevented this incident, which could have ended much differently.

The subject of inter-agency communication and information sharing will be a point of discussion on the agenda in forthcoming meetings and communications with other management agencies.
(* pers. comm. AF / USFWS 071718 )

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RandyHiker
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PostTue Jul 17, 2018 11:11 am 
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Ski wrote:
Randy, if you want to go down into some tangential rabbit hole, you go right ahead. I'm not interested.

Sorry the facts don't agree with your narrative.

Seems like this is a typical Ski response when asked to provide substantiation of a point he is asserting.  "I'm not interested"

You were the one asserting a narrative that wolves in Washington have an "unlimited" food supply from cattle that they don't have elsewhere.
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harrymalamute
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PostTue Jul 17, 2018 11:23 am 
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gb wrote:
Code:
This, whether you intended it or not is a bit of a misrepresentation of fact and serves as a scare tactic. Reality is that the habitat will reach a carrying capacity for wolves as it does for all predators. Washington's wolves are even now only slightly growing and will soon reach such a maximum capacity; but Yellowstone now as 20 years ago supports about 100 wolves.

What your graph doesn't show is that during the same time period Idaho went from 38 wolves to over 600 and an ecosystem that can only sustain about 300. where do you think all those wolves came from?... Jellystone.

Anyhow my view isn't about how many wolves should be but educating the public that numbers of larger pack sizes vs originally just breeding pairs has and is going to increasingly change the wilderness experience to the average poodle dog hiking-Subaru driving recreationalist.

For instance the Selkirks didn't always have bear boxes in the high country  and large signs at trail heads  with picture of grizzly bear with a list of do's and don't.

Problem is even with the public being informed. No one can describe to me what to do if by acting with regard for the wolves yet stumbles into a pack that takes up position around them what the average person is going to do, especially if they have a poodle dog on leash.

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PostTue Jul 17, 2018 2:31 pm 
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RandyHiker wrote:
You were the one asserting a narrative that wolves in Washington have an "unlimited" food supply from cattle that they don't have elsewhere.

No, that's not what I said at all, but thanks for playing.

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