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Foist Sultan of Sweat
Joined: 08 May 2006 Posts: 3974 | TRs | Pics Location: Back! |
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Foist
Sultan of Sweat
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Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:20 pm
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Why isn't the Downey fire on Inciweb?
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Kim Brown Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 Posts: 6899 | TRs | Pics
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gb wrote: | That is what is stupid and requires a whole rethink in this day and age. We cannot as a society let fires burn when the forest is tinder dry and we have to allocate and have on hand much greater resources that can be employed in a timely manner. |
Yes; fire fighting jobs are seasonal and most are temporary. From one season to the next it's impossible to know what the upcoming fire season will be like and how many people to hire and train. I have seen wildfire jobs on DNRs site as recently as a few weeks ago.
Given the staff available right now, it's best to send them to places that impact communities. That leaves out Downey Creek.
Is that right? Wrong? Loss of old growth will indeed impact us in the future. But right now all we can do is put fires out as best we can, and work toward getting government, industry, and the general population on board with ways to reduce the unreasonable spread of these fires and changing where and how we live.
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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Kim Brown Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 Posts: 6899 | TRs | Pics
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Foist wrote: | Why isn't the Downey fire on Inciweb? |
Not big enough. Can't recall the criteria but I think it's 100 acres....
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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AlpineRose Member
Joined: 08 May 2012 Posts: 1953 | TRs | Pics
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There is a middle path for forest management between suppressing every fire (supposing we had the resources to do that) and letting all fires burn. We need to find it and fund it. I think the science is out there to help formulate more sensible decisions.
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treeswarper Alleged Sockpuppet!
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 11276 | TRs | Pics Location: Don't move here |
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:48 pm
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AlpineRose wrote: | There is a middle path for forest management between suppressing every fire (supposing we had the resources to do that) and letting all fires burn. We need to find it and fund it. I think the science is out there to help formulate more sensible decisions. |
That's being done. The problem is that fires start in the wilderness areas, where the plans figure to let those burn then the fire grows and heads down the valley to non-wilderness, civilized areas. That is happening with the Crescent fire and the one by Mazama and the Cougar fire. its the good old urban forest interface problem.
I saw the Okanogan/Wenatchee fire plan earlier this year and was amazed at the let burn and monitor acreage. Most of the Okanogan fell into that category. I have heard silviculturists mention that the best thing that could happen to the Okanogan would be to burn up and start over.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Kim Brown Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 Posts: 6899 | TRs | Pics
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AlpineRose wrote: | I think the science is out there to help formulate more sensible decisions. |
Yes, it is out there. It's in the government's hands - ours, if we yell loud enough and often.
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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AlpineRose Member
Joined: 08 May 2012 Posts: 1953 | TRs | Pics
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Yeah, science and knowledge are one thing. The will to formulate policy based on it is another.
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treeswarper Alleged Sockpuppet!
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 11276 | TRs | Pics Location: Don't move here |
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:54 pm
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gb wrote: | I am sure you know more than I regarding the timber industry. But one thing I am unable to find is historic total Forest Service income from stumpage fees, and then historic total Forest Service budgets.
It is clear to me that if you take the economy as a whole and not just of individual rural towns, that the value of tourism would overwhelm many many times over the value of monies spent in fighting fires towards the economy of primarily rural communities. This is of an entirely different scale. |
Do a study on Randle, WA. Tourism was pretty good after the mountain blew up but that trickled off. For two years the main road to access recreation was closed. I have my doubts having lived there during the logging boom and after during the logging trickle.
Packwood has no doctor, the pharmacy closed, and there are stores of the month just like other tourist places. Both Packwood and Randle lack sewer systems and that limits any growth. There is no way that the tourism replaces the better wage paying jobs of logging and the lumber mills. No way.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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treeswarper Alleged Sockpuppet!
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 11276 | TRs | Pics Location: Don't move here |
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:01 pm
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gb wrote: | There is no reason to think that old growth forests are seeing a buildup of fuels. Second growth and previously logged or burned forests should be a different story. |
In forestry, one size does not fit all. While the temperate rain forest old growth may not have a build up of fuels, the Ponderosa Pine and Spruce forests on the east side do accumulate fuels. Look at all the fire scars on the older pine. You'll find black scars on the uphill side of the stump area. That's where the needles have built up and burned. Spruce usually shares space with Larch and Lodgepole. The Larch is more fire tolerant that the other two.
I refuse to call lodgepole pine "old growth" it is meant to die young, at 80+ years and burn and burn again. But it does have some nasty fuels build up with all the jack strawed stuff in it that'll make you say bad words and bruise your shins while trying to walk through it.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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gb Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2010 Posts: 6308 | TRs | Pics
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gb
Member
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Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:18 pm
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treeswarper wrote: | gb wrote: | I am sure you know more than I regarding the timber industry. But one thing I am unable to find is historic total Forest Service income from stumpage fees, and then historic total Forest Service budgets.
It is clear to me that if you take the economy as a whole and not just of individual rural towns, that the value of tourism would overwhelm many many times over the value of monies spent in fighting fires towards the economy of primarily rural communities. This is of an entirely different scale. |
Do a study on Randle, WA. Tourism was pretty good after the mountain blew up but that trickled off. For two years the main road to access recreation was closed. I have my doubts having lived there during the logging boom and after during the logging trickle.
Packwood has no doctor, the pharmacy closed, and there are stores of the month just like other tourist places. Both Packwood and Randle lack sewer systems and that limits any growth. There is no way that the tourism replaces the better wage paying jobs of logging and the lumber mills. No way. |
The value of tourism in Washington State in 2016 was $20 billion, that is of a different scale. You could look up the value of tourism in other states or in National Parks. It is an entirely different scale and any substantial reduction due to forest fire smoke or expectations of smoke would be huge. https://data.results.wa.gov/reports/G2-1-1c-Tourism-Spending
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gb Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2010 Posts: 6308 | TRs | Pics
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gb
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Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:19 pm
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treeswarper wrote: | gb wrote: | There is no reason to think that old growth forests are seeing a buildup of fuels. Second growth and previously logged or burned forests should be a different story. |
In forestry, one size does not fit all. While the temperate rain forest old growth may not have a build up of fuels, the Ponderosa Pine and Spruce forests on the east side do accumulate fuels. Look at all the fire scars on the older pine. You'll find black scars on the uphill side of the stump area. That's where the needles have built up and burned. Spruce usually shares space with Larch and Lodgepole. The Larch is more fire tolerant that the other two.
I refuse to call lodgepole pine "old growth" it is meant to die young, at 80+ years and burn and burn again. But it does have some nasty fuels build up with all the jack strawed stuff in it that'll make you say bad words and bruise your shins while trying to walk through it. |
I don't disagree.
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FiresideChats Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2014 Posts: 363 | TRs | Pics Location: San Juan Islands |
gb wrote: | There is no reason to think that old growth forests are seeing a buildup of fuels. |
My point was that old growth forests have the most fuels of any forest, but those fuels stay wet and never burn. Until they do. If a rainforest ecosystem has warmer temps and more net drying in annual summer drought conditions, ultimately it will burn more often than the "1,000 year event" and overwhelm fire suppression efforts. I'm thinking especially of the Olympic rainforest burn of several years ago.
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FiresideChats Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2014 Posts: 363 | TRs | Pics Location: San Juan Islands |
treeswarper wrote: | I have heard silviculturists mention that the best thing that could happen to the Okanogan would be to burn up and start over. |
I would guess that is because fire suppression efforts have led to unhealthy stands of more closely-packed trees over large areas.
I remember watching a 10-part UW Denman Foresty lecture series on Youtube, but I can't find the same course anymore, although there are other videos. It was fascinating and informative, as one would expect.
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