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Randito
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PostSat Aug 25, 2018 1:07 pm 
RumiDude wrote:
RandyHiker wrote:
How does that work for your family and estate ? How do they obtain a death certificate ?
In the state of Washington I am pretty sure you can have SS and pension checks either stopped or put into escrow. Rumi
From the linked RCW 11.05A.050
Quote:
(5) An individual whose death is not established under this section who is absent for a continuous period of seven years, during which he or she has not been heard from, and whose absence is not satisfactorily explained after diligent search or inquiry, is presumed to be dead. His or her death is presumed to have occurred at the end of the period unless there is sufficient evidence for determining that death occurred earlier.
So state law as it currently exists requires: 1) A "diligent search" 2) A waiting period of 7 years. So I don't think current law allows for a "just don't look for me" option. I guess if you don't have any family, perhaps this is NBFD -- for those of us with family that we care about -- well it's not an option I would choose. OTH if you hate your family -- tying up your estate for 7 years sounds like a great FU parting shot.

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RumiDude
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PostSat Aug 25, 2018 1:27 pm 
RandyHiker wrote:
So state law as it currently exists requires:
(3) A certified or authenticated copy of any record or report of a governmental agency, domestic or foreign, that an individual is missing, detained, dead, or alive is prima facie evidence of the status and of the dates, circumstances, and places disclosed by the record or report. (4) In the absence of prima facie evidence of death under subsection (2) or (3) of this section, the fact of death may be established by clear and convincing evidence, including circumstantial evidence. Establishing death in a missing person in the wilderness has not been an issue from the two people I have spoke with that had to do it.
RandyHiker wrote:
OTH if you hate your family -- tying up your estate for 7 years sounds like a great FU parting shot.
The idea that people who don't take one of these devices under discussion here must mean they hate their family is pretty silly. The same applies to comments like this:
Quote:
But that's quite different from carrying a satellite messenger for safety while recreating -- unless your purpose in heading to the mountains is to get away from someone at home. But that is non technological problem.
Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Randito
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PostSat Aug 25, 2018 2:09 pm 
RumiDude wrote:
The idea that people who don't take one of these devices under discussion here must mean they hate their family is pretty silly.
The sub-topic being discussed in the last few posts concerned some of the complications of a protocol for "don't rescue me". I've never asserted that everyone must carry a PLB / SatMsg. I stated that: 1) I carry one and find it useful for me and my family. 2) That I find assertion that carrying a PLB/SatMsg increases the risk of injury and death to be unpersuasive. It seems your pretty defensive about your choice to not carry such a device and seem upset that you are not getting validation for your choice in the forum. Why do you care what I think?

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PostSat Aug 25, 2018 2:23 pm 
RandyHiker wrote:
That I find assertion that carrying a PLB/SatMsg increases the risk of injury and death to be unpersuasive.
There has been presented no persuasive argument that carrying a PLB/SatMsg device increases the risk of injury and death. There does remain, however, the question of whether or not the advent of wireless electronic communication devices (whether they be cellular phones, PLBs, SatMsg, or otherwise) has caused some change in preparedness and/or risk-taking by individuals who might not otherwise take those risks. (i.e., climbing the "Haystack" on Mt. Si - an excellent example.) Again, nobody has done any comprehensive research on the issue so there's no way to quantify what effect, if any, cellular phone (or other electronic communication device) use has had in this regard. Until then, it's all anecdotal, and it's all speculation and conjecture. The only thing that can be said for certain is that having the PLB/SatMsg device (if used properly) does seem to increase the odds in favor of SAR teams being successful in finding the subjects of their searches. The arguments about family concerns, wife concerns, loved one concerns are all subjective and those situations are going to vary from one individual to another. Different people are going to deal with those issues differently, and there is no "right" way or "wrong" way, anymore than there's a "right" or "wrong" way to mourn the dead - we all have our own ways of dealing with stuff like that. Peace of mind for your wife is all fine and well, but why should it be a determining factor for everyone?

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neek
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PostSat Aug 25, 2018 3:44 pm 
Question for those who don't carry anything - what (if anything) would make you change your mind? Would you (perhaps grudgingly) carry a PLB if someone gave you one? If you find that you are one of the last holdouts, will you succumb to the new cultural norm and buy one? For me the answer is probably "yes" in both cases, but I totally get the "wilderness aesthetic" point of view. I am, however, very much aesthetically opposed (if that's a thing) to anything requiring a subscription. But that's a personal thing based on my attitude toward money, not necessarily logic. And it does seem to me to be a ripoff. I'm able to SMS from most summits around here (for the unimportant stuff. Obviously that doesn't give me an SOS button that works anywhere, so I certainly don't view my cell phone as a piece of safety gear. PLB with GPS seems like it would be the way to go for me). I also wonder if there are other scenarios we haven't covered where a device could make things worse. The concept of risk compensation is fascinating to me and I think very real. I get a kick of out people arguing that they're immune to the same unconscious biases that affect everyone else. (Although without a doubt, with awareness and practice, we can overcome them to some extent, and most people here for sure have developed above-average outdoor skills.) But let's not go there again. A few other scenarios I can think of: 1) I'm in trouble but can't use the device for whatever reason so my family thinks "well, he's overdue, but there's no SOS so he's probably just taking longer than expected." 2) One day so many yahoos own these things and use them irresponsibly, so resources are constrained and genuine emergencies start falling through the cracks. 3) You've pressed the button and start relaxing because you know help is on the way, but either the message doesn't go through or help takes longer than expected and you prematurely give up the will to stay alive or self-rescue. OK, these scenarios seem pretty contrived and unlikely, although no more ridiculous than the idea of a "do not rescue" clause that somehow warranted serious discussion. Am I missing any other possible unintended consequences? I'm with Ski - data would be nice, but seems non-existent. So at this point I'm just looking for ideas and anecdotes. My anecdote - when a rescue was required, I ran back to civilization (4 hours away) to make a call, even though a SPOT had been activated (for one thing, we had no idea if the message even went through). Turns out that was a good thing, because they said they probably wouldn't have sent anyone until the next day if I hadn't shown up to explain the urgency. Sorry I can't go into more detail, but solo travelers should take note. One thing that seems clear is that one of these gadgets should NOT be the first thing a novice hiker invests in. Get the 10 essentials, learn the basics, go with groups... then, when you've reached the "next level", start doing your PLB research.

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Chief Joseph
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PostSat Aug 25, 2018 4:03 pm 
neek wrote:
Question for those who don't carry anything - what (if anything) would make you change your mind? Would you (perhaps grudgingly) carry a PLB if someone gave you one? If you find that you are one of the last holdouts, will you succumb to the new cultural norm and buy one?
If someone gave me one I would sell it. If I find that I am one of the last holdouts, that would not change my opinion. However, I will add that if I mainly hiked solo into remote and obscure places, I might consider carrying one.

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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PostSat Aug 25, 2018 5:08 pm 
I do only solo and I go to remote and obscure places, and I do not want or need anything more than what I am currently carrying, and the odds of me changing my mind about it are less than zero (if that's numerically possible.) In the unlikely event that God himself appears with one in hand at the trailhead and commands me to carry and use it, I would most likely feel obliged to comply with the request. Otherwise, the answer isn't just no, the answer is hell no.
neek wrote:
"...no more ridiculous than the idea of a "do not rescue" clause that somehow warranted serious discussion..."
It's only "ridiculous" because you've got it made up in your head that it's not possible, or you cannot accept the idea that there are people who don't share your own values. Nobody gets out of here alive. As Longfellow put it: "Thy fate is the common fate of all" I particularly like this little snip, because it rings true for me: "I have seen the moment of my greatness flicker And I have seen the eternal Footman hold my coat, and snicker." - T.S. Eliot We are only visitors here on this temporal plane, and we will all be on a different journey at some point in the future. When you have finally come to accept that reality, you can either (A) embrace it, or (B) live out the rest of your brief existence in fear and denial of the inevitable. The brief conversation in quotes I posted above wasn't something I just made up for the purpose of this discussion. That conversation took place last Saturday. I do not wish to be "rescued". Leave me alone and let me exit in the manner of my own choosing and on my own terms. I alone am the one to make that choice, Randy's dutiful quoting of State statutes notwithstanding. There's nothing "ridiculous" about it at all, except what you've made up inside your head.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Athena12345
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PostSat Aug 25, 2018 5:33 pm 
Ski wrote:
neek wrote:
"...no more ridiculous than the idea of a "do not rescue" clause that somehow warranted serious discussion..."
It's only "ridiculous" because you've got it made up in your head that it's not possible, or you cannot accept the idea that there are people who don't share your own values.
I've thought about this before myself, especially when reading about multi-day and multi-week SAR operations that I would never want undertaken on my behalf. I can only imagine that many of the subjects of the searches would not have wanted them either. My ghost would be yelling, "I died 12 days ago! Go home! I'm sorry for the trouble I've caused!" Of course, loved ones want answers and closure, and it is always terrible and all the more sad when they can't get that. I have the hope that my loved ones would react the same way Ski suggests he would like his to: "She went hiking and never came back. She died doing something she loved, and her body is at rest in a place that she enjoyed and respected." I've actually left notes before saying, "if I'm not back by [date], you can go get my car from [trailhead] and you can have it." It does seem like there should be a more official legal process for this, similar to a DNR. I've also thought about the possibility of being attacked and killed by an animal, such as a bear or cougar. If that happens, I would prefer not to be found, and I would certainly prefer that the animal not be killed. The problem, of course, is that if you or I expire anywhere near a trail, our bodies will need to be recovered. Nobody would want to hike in the area, considering the decomposition.

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PostSat Aug 25, 2018 5:42 pm 
Ski wrote:
It's only "ridiculous" because you've got it made up in your head that it's not possible, or you cannot accept the idea that there are people who don't share your own values.
Dang, you're feisty! You clearly haven't seen my comments on e.g. suicide in other threads. But you really think it would fly given today's cultural norms and political climate? To be clear, I'd love to have the option, but you're right, I do currently hold the opinion that it's unlikely to happen anytime soon. Also, I bet a lot of folks would ignore the request and search anyway.

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PostSat Aug 25, 2018 5:47 pm 
Athena12345 wrote:
I've also thought about the possibility of being attacked and killed by an animal, such as a bear or cougar. If that happens, I would prefer not to be found, and I would certainly prefer that the animal not be killed.
I've had that thought as well, but the reality is most people aren't going to want an animal that's developed a taste for human flesh roaming around. Otherwise, after I die (by whatever means) I'd love to become cougar food.

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PostSat Aug 25, 2018 6:02 pm 
neek wrote:
I've had that thought as well, but the reality is most people aren't going to want an animal that's developed a taste for human flesh roaming around. Otherwise, after I die (by whatever means) I'd love to become cougar food.
Exactly! My feeling is that if the animal attacked and killed me, it was probably either feeling threatened, protecting babies, or starving. In any of those cases, it would be a darn shame for it to then be killed, and it would also mean that I had died for no reason at all. I think my spirit would at least want the consolation of knowing that I had somehow contributed to its well-being or the well-being of its babies. It's easy to be philosophical, and I may feel differently when the flesh is being torn from my body one bit at a time, but this is how I feel in general. The justification for killing the animal is always, as you said, that once it has killed a person, it will kill again. In some cases, wildlife officials have spared the animal if they concluded that it was acting in defense of offspring and did not feed on the body. I wonder if it's true that once you've tasted human flesh, you will want to eat more and more of it. I'm a vegetarian, so I'm not sure about that one.

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Chief Joseph
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PostSat Aug 25, 2018 6:07 pm 
Ski wrote:
I do only solo and I go to remote and obscure places, and I do not want or need anything more than what I am currently carrying, and the odds of me changing my mind about it are less than zero (if that's numerically possible.) In the unlikely event that God himself appears with one in hand at the trailhead and commands me to carry and use it, I would most likely feel obliged to comply with the request. Otherwise, the answer isn't just no, the answer is hell no.
neek wrote:
"...no more ridiculous than the idea of a "do not rescue" clause that somehow warranted serious discussion..."
It's only "ridiculous" because you've got it made up in your head that it's not possible, or you cannot accept the idea that there are people who don't share your own values. Nobody gets out of here alive. As Longfellow put it: "Thy fate is the common fate of all" I particularly like this little snip, because it rings true for me: "I have seen the moment of my greatness flicker And I have seen the eternal Footman hold my coat, and snicker." - T.S. Eliot We are only visitors here on this temporal plane, and we will all be on a different journey at some point in the future. When you have finally come to accept that reality, you can either (A) embrace it, or (B) live out the rest of your brief existence in fear and denial of the inevitable. The brief conversation in quotes I posted above wasn't something I just made up for the purpose of this discussion. That conversation took place last Saturday. I do not wish to be "rescued". Leave me alone and let me exit in the manner of my own choosing and on my own terms. I alone am the one to make that choice, Randy's dutiful quoting of State statutes notwithstanding. There's nothing "ridiculous" about it at all, except what you've made up inside your head.
I just have to say that I find this post to be totally awesome! up.gif

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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PostSat Aug 25, 2018 6:39 pm 
neek wrote:
"Dang, you're feisty!"
Perhaps. I'd prefer to use the term "resolute". Not many of us share near-death experiences. When you get to that point, you realize that there's really not a lot you can do about it, and your choices are limited to those I mentioned above. Granted, falling down and breaking my leg and being immobilized and starving to death would not be a pleasant experience, and a scenario along that line does cause me some degree of concern, so I endeavor to be cautious enough to not allow that sort of thing to happen. No, I have not seen other posts of yours regarding suicides in other threads. Do I "think it would fly?" I don't have an answer to that question. I can only say that the members of my immediate family and those closest to me understand how I feel, and have been told (in no uncertain terms) to not make any panicked calls to 911 in the event I do not return. More importantly, my understanding from a conversation here a couple hours ago is that they agreed not to, which I find pleasantly refreshing and comforting. == This discussion reminded me of what I used to enter in the "destination" field on those NPS "Backcountry Permit" forms at the trailhead - a line from an old Pink Floyd tune: "Nobody knows where you are How near or how far." I don't tell them, and as far as I'm concerned, they don't need to know.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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PostSat Aug 25, 2018 6:58 pm 
Ski wrote:
I'd prefer to use the term "resolute"
Nothing wrong with that. I can see how I appeared to be attacking the idea, rather than the legal feasibility. Sorry about that. I'm bewildered by all these silicon valley guys who are trying to live forever. Seems to me that at some point a person will see enough suffering and sadness to pretty much be done with it all.
Ski wrote:
This discussion reminded me of what I used to enter in the "destination" field on those NPS "Backcountry Permit" forms at the trailhead - a line from an old Pink Floyd tune: "Nobody knows where you are How near or how far." I don't tell them, and as far as I'm concerned, they don't need to know.
I like that, but am way too lazy to write all those words, so just usually say "-". End-of-life topics are necessarily complicated. I'm 41, so if I told my family not to search, they'd probably have me committed. Anyway sorry for the drift...Again I'm really just after things I may not have thought of re. side effects of PLB ownership.

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Randito
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PostSat Aug 25, 2018 7:16 pm 
Ski wrote:
There does remain, however, the question of whether or not the advent of wireless electronic communication devices (whether they be cellular phones, PLBs, SatMsg, or otherwise) has caused some change in preparedness and/or risk-taking by individuals who might not otherwise take those risks. (i.e., climbing the "Haystack" on Mt. Si - an excellent example.)
Personally I find the "people are less prepared today" argument to fall into the "get off my lawn" category. The first time I climbed Mt Si (on the "old trail" the only trail at the time) it was in Keds, cotton pants from J C Penney's and a T shirt and I climbed the Haystack as well. On this and many other outings, I was blessed with good fortune. So I don't buy the assertion that the percentage of unprepared fools is greater now than before -- I do believe that there are just a lot more total people out hiking , so the number of incidents is of course higher.

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