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JonnyQuest
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Joined: 10 Dec 2013
Posts: 593 | TRs | Pics
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| Bdzzle wrote: | | We have no right to privacy on public land. |
True, but I think it's fair that we should expect courtesy.
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cambajamba
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Joined: 05 Nov 2011
Posts: 339 | TRs | Pics
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1) Play with expensive, noisy toy that is emblematic of a lot of the problem users and issues that plague our recreational spaces.
2) Seek validation by posting dreary drone video on forum popular with older curmudgeons.
3) Fail to gain approval or validation from ersatz father figures.
4) "You have no right to _________!"
Nice, this is going extremely well.
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Tom
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Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 17853 | TRs | Pics
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Tom
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 Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:04 am |
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| JonnyQuest wrote: | | Bdzzle wrote: | | We have no right to privacy on public land. |
True, but I think it's fair that we should expect courtesy. |
Courtesy goes both ways.
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JonnyQuest
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Joined: 10 Dec 2013
Posts: 593 | TRs | Pics
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| Tom wrote: | | Courtesy goes both ways |
It sure does. If I'm made aware that I'm doing something to disturb someone or degrade their experience, I usually do my best to abide by their request. Within reason, of course, which introduces subjectivity.
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KurgansDad
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Joined: 03 Apr 2015
Posts: 23 | TRs | Pics
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| Quote: | | I can appreciate your respectful behavior of those around you. You are the exception, unfortunately. Thanks, too, for not taking my strongly held belief as a personal attack. Yes, we simply disagree. There is already too much noise in wild landscapes now with speakers on packs and disrespectful behavior. So far, in my time being disturbed by drones I have yet to even locate the owner. It was a violation of my sanctity, my privacy, and my appreciation of the landscape I was trying to enjoy. In Death Valley I thought I came upon a hive of africanized bees. That sent me running and unable to locate them until I figured (and located the machine in the sky) that it was illegal drone flying I was running from. No joke. I've been stung and chased before and they sound remarkably alike initially. By the time I downclimbed the dryfall to reach the road I reached the operator putting it away. He just shrugged and blew me off as I took his license plate # and informed him they were illegal in NPS lands
Keep the drones in urban settings. |
I may have miscounted, but you managed 17 instances of I, me, my, in only 11 sentences. Going for the record? 
For too many years I gazed at the Cascades and other mountains as they taunted me and I said "...Someday..." Now I find I'm running out of somedays...
For too many years I gazed at the Cascades and other mountains as they taunted me and I said "...Someday..." Now I find I'm running out of somedays...
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
Posts: 3590 | TRs | Pics
Location: Port Angeles |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:48 am |
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For what it is worth, I enjoyed the video. It seemed close enough to I-90 that it wasn't an issue.
| MtnGoat wrote: | | But then I see claims that 'public' land should be off limits to public even for uses which are non extractive and non damaging, other than to the sensibilities of the offended. And that's when I push back, because if that continues, it's only a matter of time in a system based on precedent, until they decide to ban my uses too for offending someone's sensitivities. |
In 1964, The Wilderness Act was signed into law. The major motivation behind the Wilderness Act was the fear that we would have so little quality wilderness left if we as a nation continued using it up. So the Wilderness Act set aside areas deemed relatively pristine and set in place a process to do more of the same in the future. According to the Act: "In order to assure that an increasing population, accompanied by expanding settlement and growing mechanization, does not occupy and modify all areas within the United States and its possessions, leaving no lands designated for preservation and protection in their natural condition, it is hereby declared to be the policy of the Congress to secure for the American people of present and future generations the benefits of an enduring resource of wilderness." Further the Wilderness Act defines what wilderness is: "A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain. An area of wilderness is further defined to mean in this Act an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions and which (1) generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable; (2) has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation; (3) has at least five thousand acres of land or is of sufficient size as to make practicable its preservation and use in an unimpaired condition; and (4) may also contain ecological, geological, or other features of scientific, educational, scenic, or historical value."
For me the idea of a place that "has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation" is the foremost reason to seek them out. But we have more than just designated Wilderness ares among our federal and state lands, and that is good. Each seems to have varying degrees of protection and recreational use, and that is good. So as long as drone use doesn't get out of hand, then I don't mind terribly to have one buzz around me on occassion. But with the growing population of recreationists and popularity of drones, I can see how easily they would become a real PITA out there. And with that I can easily imagine people flying these in designated Wilderness just like you see other user groups "poach" designated Wilderness.
And how does this activity dovetail/clash with the recent angst here and more broadly about social media effects on our favorite places? Doesn't this work against such efforts?
Anyway, I go into Wilderness and backcountry areas to find a bit of that solitude and maybe even a peaceful transcendent experience. You may laugh about that or call it a myth, but that is your loss. Regardless, I hope we all can agree that a little courtesy towards one another goes a long way to ensuring everyone gets their own quality backcountry experiences.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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JoshK
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Joined: 13 Apr 2010
Posts: 11 | TRs | Pics
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JoshK
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Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:09 pm |
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| John Morrow wrote: | | Sorry, but drones are a cancer to a silent sky. They need to be banned to recreational use on all public lands. |
Hey if we are being fair, I'd say the 6 lane interstate full of semis and SUVs full of hordes descending on overcrowded trails are a far bigger cancer than a guy having fun flying near the freeway.
Speaking of crowds, the rapid increase in "wilderness" crowds over the past 2 decades has been a buzzkill for me. Can we just ban everybody but me from recreational use on all public lands?
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Bdzzle
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Joined: 30 Oct 2010
Posts: 220 | TRs | Pics
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Bdzzle
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Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:31 pm |
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| cambajamba wrote: | | 1) Play with expensive, noisy toy that is emblematic of a lot of the problem users and issues that plague our recreational spaces.
2) Seek validation by posting dreary drone video on forum popular with older curmudgeons.
3) Fail to gain approval or validation from ersatz father figures.
4) "You have no right to _________!"
Nice, this is going extremely well. |
Oh its totally fine with me that some people don't like it, thats ok. And i don't need approval. I am very polite when i fly and try to go to places where no one is close by and even have waited around for people to leave as i know it annoys some people. My comment about "no right to privacy" is not even about drones really. To me its public land that we all pay for if you want to listen to loud music or fly dones...etc thats ok. I can either hike faster or go somewhere else cause i have no right to tell them how to spend their time outdoors.
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Bdzzle
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Joined: 30 Oct 2010
Posts: 220 | TRs | Pics
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Bdzzle
Member
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Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:37 pm |
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| RumiDude wrote: | | You may laugh about that or call it a myth, but that is your loss. Regardless, I hope we all can agree that a little courtesy towards one another goes a long way to ensuring everyone gets their own quality backcountry experiences. |
I don't laugh about that, I just have a passion to experience nature with my camera which is very different then some. I have made a good chuck of my living through my my instagram and getting jobs based on my outdoor photography. I think you have a great outlook on it and i appreciate that. I just get frustrated when people believe that THEIR way is the best way to be in nature. We all enjoy it differently.
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John Morrow
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Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 1526 | TRs | Pics
Location: Roslyn |
| Bdzzle wrote: | | cambajamba wrote: | | 1) Play with expensive, noisy toy that is emblematic of a lot of the problem users and issues that plague our recreational spaces.
2) Seek validation by posting dreary drone video on forum popular with older curmudgeons.
3) Fail to gain approval or validation from ersatz father figures.
4) "You have no right to _________!"
Nice, this is going extremely well. |
Oh its totally fine with me that some people don't like it, thats ok. And i don't need approval. I am very polite when i fly and try to go to places where no one is close by and even have waited around for people to leave as i know it annoys some people. My comment about "no right to privacy" is not even about drones really. To me its public land that we all pay for if you want to listen to loud music or fly dones...etc thats ok. I can either hike faster or go somewhere else cause i have no right to tell them how to spend their time outdoors. |
I appreciate your politeness, Bdazzle. My point is others will not behave such a way. Therefore, there are regulations in place against loud music, and other behaviors, in various public lands. It's not really OK to be abnoxiously loud or trash a place out of personal selfishness etc. None of which you are doing. I am just referencing your point about freedom to do whatever. You know that is not true. That is the foundation of civil society.
All the comparisons from others are really nonsensical. The cars on I90 aren't going to start flying and follow me at tree level onto the quiet side of the ridge. Nor does aircraft have the maneuverability to disrupt a wild place for long. I don't like any of those things, really, either. And, there are regs and guidlines pertaining to all that too. FAA flight guidelines over wilderness for example. Vehicles are limited to roads and trails that are fixed and I know I can steer clear of. And the parabolic increase in use and overcrowding concerns me in a huge way. Ecosystems and wlidness aren't here solely for our benefit.
I do see where I stand, though. So, I am not going to defend every disparate comparison. In a minority here for sure. But in no way is "my way' the right or wrong way to enjoy the natural world. Nor am I professing such. I just draw the line on these machines because it is going to become a wave of potential madness, as they get cheaper, that we'll all regret. If they were banned someplace, and Bdazzle had a financial stake at risk, then special use commercial permits would likely be available for permitted flying for a legit purpose. (My assumption). Reputable news outlets like PBS Newshour are already using them in storylines on the environment.
“Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?”-Mary Oliver
“A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.”
― MLK Jr.
“Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?”-Mary Oliver
“A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.”
― MLK Jr.
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AlpineRose
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Joined: 08 May 2012
Posts: 1953 | TRs | Pics
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| Bdzzle wrote: | | I just get frustrated when people believe that THEIR way is the best way to be in nature. We all enjoy it differently. |
When I enjoy nature, I don't create a noise that sets people's teeth on edge. A buzzing drone creates the aural equivalent of dog poop bags, TP flowers, and piles of human crap on the ground.
My ears are private property, even when I'm on public land.
I just hope I'm not within earshot when you fantasize you're creating "art" flying your irritating thing around.
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JoshK
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Joined: 13 Apr 2010
Posts: 11 | TRs | Pics
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JoshK
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Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:15 pm |
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I agree with most everything you say Mr. Morrow and my quip about I-90 being right there was to say this: I think it's fair Mr. Bdzzle has *somewhere* to fly, and where he chose was extremely appropriate imo. It's nothing remotely like wilderness there. If he had posted some footage from a deep wilderness area I could see the concern. I remember some dude got lit up on cascadeclimbers a few years back for posting drone footage from the south side of mt. baker in winter. Possibly annoying for some, but the snowmobiles allowed there are like 1000x worse, so the complaints seemed silly to me.
Also, a bit of a tangent, but anybody who uses social media should not open their mouth about their privacy.
And just to throw some gas on this...if you stop and think about it, social media as well as sites like nwhikers.com, cascadeclimbers, TAY, etc. have done more to "ruin" the wilderness than a guy with a drone. Want to make sure that "secret" spot of yours gets a steady increase in people visiting? Post a TR. Anybody that denies this effect is in a sad state of denial.
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John Morrow
Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 1526 | TRs | Pics
Location: Roslyn |
| JoshK wrote: | | I agree with most everything you say Mr. Morrow and my quip about I-90 being right there was to say this: I think it's fair Mr. Bdzzle has *somewhere* to fly, and where he chose was extremely appropriate imo. It's nothing remotely like wilderness there. If he had posted some footage from a deep wilderness area I could see the concern. I remember some dude got lit up on cascadeclimbers a few years back for posting drone footage from the south side of mt. baker in winter. Possibly annoying for some, but the snowmobiles allowed there are like 1000x worse, so the complaints seemed silly to me.
Also, a bit of a tangent, but anybody who uses social media should not open their mouth about their privacy.
And just to throw some gas on this...if you stop and think about it, social media as well as sites like nwhikers.com, cascadeclimbers, TAY, etc. have done more to "ruin" the wilderness than a guy with a drone. Want to make sure that "secret" spot of yours gets a steady increase in people visiting? Post a TR. Anybody that denies this effect is in a sad state of denial. |
I am not disagreeing with anything you say here, Josh. Yes, flying over I90 is not really an issue I'll challenge. But soon it will not be "one guy" with a drone, and how/where will we draw the 2 dimensional lines of appropriate use in three dimensional space.
I'm fully aware of the impact of social media on wilderness. It is one of the core issues, along with a population explosion in PNW of middle class people with well paying occupations and disposable cash and a desire for healthy physical pursuits. Why I have been very careful and selective of where I post on here; and I am not a member of any other social media after Flickr (necessary to post here). Oh, TAY also. I don't own a cell phone.
“Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?”-Mary Oliver
“A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.”
― MLK Jr.
“Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?”-Mary Oliver
“A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.”
― MLK Jr.
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JoshK
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Joined: 13 Apr 2010
Posts: 11 | TRs | Pics
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JoshK
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Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:38 pm |
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Yeah i definitely agree there is a risk of them becoming a problem. It makes sense to not allow use over wilderness. I just hope those that do fly really think hard about picking places where others will not be bothered. It seems bdzzle at least has his eyes open to that.
My buddy has one and it was undeniably cool to be able to fly over Seattle and check out the neighborhood from the air. It's an amazing perspective to get, and one that used to cost a fortune for the average person. You can't use them in Seattle Parks either, fwiw, but you definitely see that happening somewhat often. In that case it's not so much annoyance, but safety. If they aren't flying them next people though I don't mind.
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Bdzzle
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Joined: 30 Oct 2010
Posts: 220 | TRs | Pics
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Bdzzle
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Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:41 pm |
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| AlpineRose wrote: | | I just hope I'm not within earshot when you fantasize you're creating "art" flying your irritating thing around. |
Cause you would do what exactly?
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