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Randito
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Randito
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PostFri Sep 07, 2018 7:12 pm 
Athena12345 wrote:
Wow. I had thought that the members of NW Hikers shared a certain respect for wilderness and a had an interest in protecting it
Annoying fact: Mailbox peak is on DNR land outside the Alpine Lakes Wilderness boundary. It is has the same "Wilderness" status as Tiger , Rattlesnake and Si. I.e. None.

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Athena12345
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PostFri Sep 07, 2018 7:19 pm 
RandyHiker wrote:
Athena12345 wrote:
Wow. I had thought that the members of NW Hikers shared a certain respect for wilderness and a had an interest in protecting it
Annoying fact: Mailbox peak is on DNR land outside the Alpine Lakes Wilderness boundary. It is has the same "Wilderness" status as Tiger , Rattlesnake and Si. I.e. None.
Uuuhhhh okkkkk, sorry, I wasn't thinking about wilderness in terms of the actual land designation, which is a very human- and government-centered thing. If you check the dictionary, there is no requirement for wilderness to be declared wilderness by the United States government before it can be considered wilderness. Should I say "nature?" We care about nature? Ok, I'll rephrase this so it's less confusing: I thought we shared a certain respect for places where there are trees, creeks, mountains, lakes, wild animals, and no sidewalks, and I thought we shared an interest in protecting places like these as special.

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JonnyQuest
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PostFri Sep 07, 2018 7:26 pm 
I love Mailbox. I especially love how it, and a few others, concentrate the many.

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Pahoehoe
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PostFri Sep 07, 2018 7:31 pm 
Maybe someone should put a sign up/start a tradition that if you are going to leave something up there you have to take something of greater size/weight down. Mailbox is mailbox. Its not changing. Leave it be or learn to live with it.

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Athena12345
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PostFri Sep 07, 2018 7:36 pm 
Pahoehoe wrote:
Mailbox is mailbox. Its not changing. Leave it be or learn to live with it.
It has changed A LOT since the first time I hiked it. It seems to be continually changing, and for the worse. It's getting trashed, and "learning to live with it" is tantamount to putting a stamp of approval on bad behavior among up-and-coming hikers. A percentage of these people will do other hikes. What will you say when they bring the Mailbox ethic to Thunder Mountain Lakes? Expand and pave the parking lot at the Tunnel Creek trailhead, put in some awesome signage at Trap Pass, spray-paint the boulder field so it's easier to find your way, and put some fun items at the first lake, perhaps with a plaque and a cement base. You know, it would be a safer hike this way. "Leave it be or learn to live with it" is not part of the ethic that founded this country. The "or" doesn't make sense, btw.

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Pahoehoe
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PostFri Sep 07, 2018 7:49 pm 
Im pretty sure that other than the mailbox on top and leaving items which is different than littering that the ratio of litterer to non, music blasters to quiet, off leash dog to leashed dog, etc is about the same. There are just more people on that trail because it is close to the city and it has a shuttle (so people who dont have the means or physical ability to drive can hike) and its social media cred.. Some prominent members here often have illegal fires, off leash dogs, toss pistachio shells on the trail, etc etc. Do what you can and then live your life. Or spend it all fighting. Its your choice.

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Athena12345
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PostFri Sep 07, 2018 7:54 pm 
Pahoehoe wrote:
Im pretty sure that other than the mailbox on top and leaving items which is different than littering that the ratio of litterer to non, music blasters to quiet, off leash dog to leashed dog, etc is about the same.
I don't think that's true, although I have no evidence to support my belief.
Pahoehoe wrote:
Do what you can and then live your life. Or spend it all fighting. Its your choice.
This is a discussion thread for people interested in voicing and exploring their concerns. I could be mindlessly watching TV. Instead, I'm thinking and attempting to engage with people who actually want to have intelligent discussion rather than throwing out dismissive and completely unhelpful distractions. I'll take the riffraff along with the thinkers, I guess. You have to sort through things to find what you're looking for in life. People who shrug their shoulders and call everyone else "fighters" are just. . .lazy, in my opinion.

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Pahoehoe
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PostFri Sep 07, 2018 7:57 pm 
Actually this is a thread about a bike on a mountain. Carry on.

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Athena12345
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PostFri Sep 07, 2018 8:00 pm 
Pahoehoe wrote:
Actually this is a thread about a bike on a mountain.
. . .and all it represents, which was quickly pointed out in the 4th post on this thread.

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Ski
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PostFri Sep 07, 2018 8:05 pm 
Athena12345 wrote:
People who shrug their shoulders and call everyone else "fighters" are just. . .lazy, in my opinion.
... or maybe they're just waiting for their own Sancho Panza to come along.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Athena12345
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PostFri Sep 07, 2018 8:14 pm 
Ski wrote:
or maybe they're just waiting for their own Sancho Panza to come along.
Well, I suppose everyone can use a pot-bellied sidekick, fighter or not

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Randito
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PostFri Sep 07, 2018 8:51 pm 
Athena12345 wrote:
Uuuhhhh okkkkk, sorry, I wasn't thinking about wilderness in terms of the actual land designation, which is a very human- and government-centered thing.
Using the term "Wilderness" is of course a "human centered thing" that what words are. The mailbox itself sitting on the summit is antithetical to wilderness values. Mailbox isn't wilderness. It's a little more primitive than for example Greenlake Park. So we shouldn't expect trash collection, restrooms and vending machines. But neither should we expect group sizes to be limited to 12 or a permit/quota system ala the Enchantments to limit crowding. People should have good manners, but unlike Greenlake Park, neither may we expect the police to show up to issue tickets for littering or playing their boombox too loudly , nor expect clean up crews to remove various garbage items that people leve behind.

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braincloud
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PostSat Sep 08, 2018 12:12 am 
I can understand the concern Athena is voicing. It’s a slippery slope argument to be sure, but a concern nonetheless. However, I also think this is a “pick your battles” case and that Mailbox is a city hike along with Si, Tiger, Rattlesnake, and Discovery and Carkeek Parks. Yeah, don’t trash them but also have a realistic view that people are going to visit these places. With the urban sprawl and increasing population here, it’s inevitable. I said before, maybe a focus on educating people instead of complaining that they’re “doing it wrong” could be a better course of action.

MyCrookedPath.com The light at the end of my tunnel is a police car.
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Slim
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PostSat Sep 08, 2018 10:59 am 
Looks like someone retrieved it from the summit. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3159137227461699&set=pcb.2452209065005426&type=3&ifg=1

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Kim Brown
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PostSat Sep 08, 2018 11:04 am 
Looks like some of those younger generation Mailbox Peak hikers are all right, after all, doesn’t it? up.gif

"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area." Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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