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Wastral
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
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Wastral
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 Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:22 pm |
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| DadFly wrote: | | "Where do we get funding to fight these fires?"
Look at the annual fire budgets plus the emergency funds and it quickly becomes clear that there is not enough money to fight more fires. That is a decision made by the Executive branch. |
Appears you need a primer in USA governance. It is Congress's responsibility for the budget, not whomever happens to have their ass in the Oval offices chair. The President can't buy a roll of toilet paper without Congressional approval. The President is a beggar. Congress is the LEGISLATIVE branch....
PS: To GB etc. Helicopters dropping things is perfectly A-OK in Wilderness. They drop bridge parts etc all the time. Just needs approval. Personally I find said rule absurd. Same goes for not allowing Chainsaws in Wilderness for trail clearing. Fine for motorized use, but everything else is absurd as they are there one day a year and gone. Of course you can fly an airplane buzzing "wilderness" valley's....... Which dwarfs any tiny chainsaw.....
Slap Slap; 10 bugs dead, Blip Blop; Stumble Fall; Curse and Get up and Do it all Over Again; Reaching High For the Sky a Mile High; Topping Out Atop a Peak; Priceless
Slap Slap; 10 bugs dead, Blip Blop; Stumble Fall; Curse and Get up and Do it all Over Again; Reaching High For the Sky a Mile High; Topping Out Atop a Peak; Priceless
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Ringangleclaw
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Joined: 01 Sep 2010
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| gb wrote: | | Ski wrote: | | you're free to believe anything you wish. |
Sorry, but that is really an ignorant (or even stupid if you don't pay attention and educate yourself) statement. |
You can get really really really angry over some minor statements.
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gb
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Joined: 01 Jul 2010
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gb
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Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:42 pm |
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| Ringangleclaw wrote: | | gb wrote: | | Ski wrote: | | you're free to believe anything you wish. |
Sorry, but that is really an ignorant (or even stupid if you don't pay attention and educate yourself) statement. |
You can get really really really angry over some minor statements. |
I just don't like ignorant statements as was implied. It is kind of like the world is dragging this chain of ignorance - the last remaining foot draggers stop meaningful progress towards making the world a more livable place in the future. I also don't like losing many of our best places because of bureaucratic muddle led at present by the Muddler in Chief.
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Ringangleclaw
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Seems like the only correct opinion is yours.
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gb
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Joined: 01 Jul 2010
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gb
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Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:46 pm |
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| Ringangleclaw wrote: | | Seems like the only correct opinion is yours. |
Climate change isn't an opinion; and arguing that it isn't man caused is an ignorant opinion.
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Ringangleclaw
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| gb wrote: | | Ringangleclaw wrote: | | Seems like the only correct opinion is yours. |
Climate change isn't an opinion; and arguing that it isn't man caused is an ignorant opinion. |
And you know he was commenting on the veracity and cause of global warming and not your belief that the entire paradigm of firefighting in designated wilderness should change?
I agree with the causes of anthropogenic global warming, I disagree that this warrants a change in the management, science and philosophy of Wilderness.
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gb
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gb
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Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:01 pm |
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| Ringangleclaw wrote: | | gb wrote: | | Ringangleclaw wrote: | | Seems like the only correct opinion is yours. |
Climate change isn't an opinion; and arguing that it isn't man caused is an ignorant opinion. |
And you know he was commenting on the veracity and cause of global warming and not your belief that the entire paradigm of firefighting in designated wilderness should change?
I agree with the causes of anthropogenic global warming, I disagree that this warrants a change in the management, science and philosophy of Wilderness. |
He responded directly to this post: | Ski wrote: | You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.
If you want "wilderness", and all it entails, then you get everything that "wilderness" is, and that includes (but is not limited to) earthquakes, tectonic plate movement, avalanches, lightning storms, hurricanes, tornadoes, and fire.
Some of those events will result in dead old-growth trees, dead threatened and endangered species, devastated landscapes, soil erosion, mass flooding, and trail closures.
| Wastral wrote: | | First Nations burned off the forests/underbrush of the entire continent. Something that has stopped. So, I guess for the first time in 10,000 years, it actually IS wilderness..... So, that is why we are seeing MASSIVE fires. Between the first nations, miners, loggers, and now no first nations, miners, or loggers(not as much as it used to be), we are now seeing massive fires.
So, either log it, burn it regularly like the First nations did for berries/food, or let it burn. |
I'm relieved to see that at least one other member here understands reality. |
Reality is that man has changed the climate so much that fires on the scale of the Mendocino 459,000 acre fire or the 229,000 acre fire are now possible. These climate changes have nothing to do with the Wilderness area's natural state. They are not natural. Which refutes that argument.
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Brushwork
Food truck
Joined: 18 Aug 2018
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Brushwork
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Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:37 pm |
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For me, wilderness is defined by the experience of nature and wildness, including the processes of nature, which includes fire.
Hiking in a burned area of forest I feel something that is different from a non burned forest. It is the experience of a force that can be terrifying. Loss, death, and a greater appreciation for what is living and what makes a forest a forest. It's nature in an extremely primal state. The experience of awe is part of what I get from being in wilderness and it's profoundly present in a burned area.
Removing fires would make wilderness less wild. It would be taking away part of nature as destructive as that can be. It would be removing it's primal character.
There might be times when it's appropriate to manage a fire in wilderness but I'm glad that in general the forces of nature are allowed to prevail.
We don't get out of this alive. It's useful to be reminded of this.
On a related note there are individuals on this forum who could benefit from looking at their own tendency to "start fires"...in being so judgemental of others...
When I grow up I wanna play.
When I grow up I wanna play.
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Ski
><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005
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Location: tacoma |
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Ski
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Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:32 pm |
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| gb wrote: | | "...Televangelist Watt." |
Who? What the hell are you talking about?
You've chosen to dismiss out of hand any information that doesn't fit your narrative. That's your choice - you're free to do so.
So far you've presented as "evidence" of your argument a paper where a few guys went up into British Columbia and took core samples out of a few lakebeds, and your "evidence" stops about 3500 years BP. Ergo: you're looking at a very small portion of historic events.
These fires occurring presently aren't any bigger than anything that's happened before, but (again) that doesn't fit your narrative that this is all a result of "global warming".
So again, you're free to believe anything you wish.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Ringangleclaw
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| Ski wrote: | | gb wrote: | | "...Televangelist Watt." |
Who? What the hell are you talking about? |
James Watt, Ronald Reagan’s SecInt came to mind.
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Ski
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Ski
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Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:41 pm |
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okay, I guess....
be damn hard for me to be able to follow any "televangelists" considering I haven't had television in this house since it went from analog to digital (and even when I did I paid little attention to it other than some PBS stuff.)
but, hey, everybody's free to fantasize, right?
==
FTR: I know virtually nothing about anything that was happening during the Reagan administration - I was busy trying to keep a business afloat 7 days a week and simply didn't have time to pay any attention to the political machinations of that era.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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thunderhead
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| Quote: | | These fires occurring presently aren't any bigger than anything that's happened before |
Indeed. In fact, judging from the charcoal records and historical accounts from before fire supression, modern fire activity is significantly less than pre industrial fires.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peshtigo_Fire
Year 1871. A million acres and some 2000 dead! Modern fires are childs play by comparison.
Not only that but fire scars = blueberries and deer.
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Wastral
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Wastral
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Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:18 am |
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| gb wrote: | | Ringangleclaw wrote: | | Seems like the only correct opinion is yours. |
Climate change isn't an opinion; and arguing that it isn't man caused is an ignorant opinion. |
Yes, the climate is changing. Man didn't create the ice age. Man didn't melt the ice age. We have no known cause for those two phenomena yet people like you claim we have a model of the earth we can predict the future.... HAHAHAAHHA  
Where are all of the thermometers? Nearly all in cities.
Is population increasing or decreasing? Increasing.
Are cities growing or shrinking? Growing.
Do cities hold warm air? Yes. How much? We do not know.
Do we have data sets without thermometers in cities? Yes.
What do ALL data sets show since 1998? Decreasing daily HIGH temperatures.
What do MOST data sets show? INCREASING daily LOW temperatures since 1998.
2 data sets without ANY city thermometers, USCRN and Satellite data show both decreasing HIGH temperatures and decreasing LOW temperatures.
Remove the human bias and the trend is obvious.
Decreasing global temperatures.
What has happened over that roughly ~20 years? Increasing by 50% CO2 percentage in the atmosphere.
Looks at temps.... Looks at every IPCC report and overlays the temperature graphs printed by IPCC... Hrmmm well lookee there, it appears everytime the IPCC prints, they "miraculously" come up with colder historical temperatures. If you compare differences between 1980, till 2015 IPCC reports the bias is 0.3C..... So, according to the IPCC, idiots for all of history of humanity were reading their thermometers on average by 0.3C colder and they were too stupid and just did not know it!!! And next time they publish they will have to help correct these historical naive stupid fools who took temperature measurements and change their measurements by an even greater extent so it will "miraculously" be colder yet, making this the "hottest on record". Some data manipulation when changing types of weather thermometers is justified. This should be a one time occurrence. The fact it happens EVERY time they publish every couple of years and never warmer, shows abject corruption.
Yes, the climate is changing. Man didn't create the ice age. Man didn't melt the ice age. We have no known cause for those two phenomena yet we claim we have a model of the earth.... HAHAHAAHHA
Man made is the question.
Slap Slap; 10 bugs dead, Blip Blop; Stumble Fall; Curse and Get up and Do it all Over Again; Reaching High For the Sky a Mile High; Topping Out Atop a Peak; Priceless
Slap Slap; 10 bugs dead, Blip Blop; Stumble Fall; Curse and Get up and Do it all Over Again; Reaching High For the Sky a Mile High; Topping Out Atop a Peak; Priceless
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Doppelganger
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BigBrunyon
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Location: the fitness gyms!! |
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