| Previous :: Next Topic |
| Author |
Message |
RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
Posts: 3590 | TRs | Pics
Location: Port Angeles |
|
RumiDude
Marmota olympus
|
 Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:33 am |
|
|
| Wastral wrote: | | RumiDude wrote: | | From the sketchy accounts, it appears the hunters in this case were careless to the point of negligent. Shooting up slope without a backstop is wrong and dangerous. |
By definition, a SLOPE is the BEST backstop. Gravity..... Yes, shocking truth, gravity still functions. At least it is at my house... Not sure about Rumis' household. |
Shooting a firearm up a slope violates almost every hunter safety course I have ever taken or heard of. Gravity is not a backstop, never has been and never will be. There are many instances of people being killed and/or severely injured from hunters shooting up slope without a solid backstop.
It is easy to view the area where this occurred on Google maps. If I recall correctly the shooters were about 400' vertical below the firefighters. The shooters were walking on the PCT. Here is a description from the perspective of the firefighters: "At approximately 1500, four incident personnel spot two individuals walking down the PCT approximately 200 yards below them. The incident personnel stand up and holler and wave. All four are wearing yellow Nomex fire shirts. Two had bright yellow hardhats. They therefore thought they had been seen by these two individuals. The incident personnel watched with binoculars as one of the two individuals put a scoped rifle on a bi-pod and looked up the mountain toward them. They continued to wave until a shot was fired. They then bailed off the backside of the mountain to take cover as a second shot rang out."
So another hunter safety rule is to be aware of what is behind your intended target. If the firefighters could see the two men, then the two men should have seen the firefighters if they were planning to shoot in that general direction. So they either did see them and shot up the slope anyway or they didn't see them because they didn't look. Either way, the shooters were at fault.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
|
| Back to top |
  
|
|
Schenk
Off Leash Man
Joined: 16 Apr 2012
Posts: 2372 | TRs | Pics
Location: Traveling, with the bear, to the other side of the Mountain |
|
Schenk
Off Leash Man
|
Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:26 pm |
|
|
^ 110% Rumi!!! Many gun handling and Hunter Safetyrules were ignored and broken.
And shooting up-slope IS NOT using a slope as a backstop no matter what twist you put on it Wastral. Shooting up-slope is damn close to shooting into the air, possibly at a trajectory such that the slug could still have enough energy to kill something as GRAVITY brings it back down.It also depends on the backstop's angle. To low of an angle and a bullet can ricochet right over that hill.
Ballistics...you might want to bone up on it a little before you go shooting, not to mention the basic rules on handling firearms.
We'll all appreciate it.
Nature exists with a stark indifference to humans' situation.
Nature exists with a stark indifference to humans' situation.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tom
Admin
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 17851 | TRs | Pics
|
|
Tom
Admin
|
Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:02 pm |
|
|
I'm not familiar with gun safety rules. Why is shooting uphill any worse than downhill or straight ahead? Is the issue you can't see over the hill? I googled "shooting uphill safely" and expected a plethora of gun safety 101 hits advising how dangerous it is but didn't have much luck.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gb
Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 6308 | TRs | Pics
|
|
gb
Member
|
Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:19 pm |
|
|
| Tom wrote: | | They were in a closed area and possibly not following hunter safety protocol. They were also shooting marmots which I'm not sure was legal from a hunting perspective. Beyond that I'm not sure what they would be charged with unless there is proof they were actually shooting at the firefighters intentionally.
In the lessons learned I find it curious they do not acknowledge the possibility they put the firefighters in danger by directing them to take off their yellow shirts and hats. |
Reckless endangerment or some form of negligence.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brushwork
Food truck
Joined: 18 Aug 2018
Posts: 508 | TRs | Pics
Location: Washington |
|
Brushwork
Food truck
|
Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:29 pm |
|
|
It was my interpretation that the fire fighters believed they were a target and taking off their bright jackets would make them less of a target.
The hunters may not have been targeting the firefighters but the firefighters (or manager) thought so.
When I grow up I wanna play.
When I grow up I wanna play.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JimmyBob
Member
Joined: 22 Jun 2018
Posts: 73 | TRs | Pics
Location: Maple Valley, WA |
|
JimmyBob
Member
|
Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:34 pm |
|
|
| Tom wrote: | | I'm not familiar with gun safety rules. Why is shooting uphill any worse than downhill or straight ahead? Is the issue you can't see over the hill? I googled "shooting uphill safely" and expected a plethora of gun safety 101 hits advising how dangerous it is but didn't have much luck. |
If you do not know where the bullet will end up. You do not shoot.
I have seen target shooters on the ridges near Greenwater, shooting ON the ridges with a total disregard for safety. Their bullets can go several miles.
No one can see that far.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tom
Admin
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 17851 | TRs | Pics
|
|
Tom
Admin
|
Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:55 pm |
|
|
Right, so is it possible the hunters knew where the bullet would end up? Or is shooting upslope never safe? I would think it depends on the terrain characteristics and other factors. Not that we know they actually shot upslope. It's certainly impled in the firefighters report but we really don't know what happened and hearing just one side of the story.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ski
><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 12831 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma |
|
Ski
><((((°>
|
Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:21 pm |
|
|
| RumiDude, quoting from the WFLLC document wrote: | | The incident personnel watched with binoculars as one of the two individuals put a scoped rifle on a bi-pod and looked up the mountain toward them. |
| Tom wrote: | | Not that we know they actually shot upslope. It's certainly impled in the firefighters report but we really don't know what happened and hearing just one side of the story. |
There does exist the possibility that the two hunters did not have binoculars, and were looking through the rifle scope to ascertain what it was moving at the top of the slope.
Again, we don't have any statement from any of the firefighters claiming they heard the sounds of live rounds flying overhead (which, as I mentioned previously, would have definitely had an impression on them and could reasonably be assumed to be a point mentioned in their reports.)
Moreover, we have been told only a couple second-hand snippets of what the shooters' side of the story is.
Have the shell casings that were recovered from the vicinity of the dead marmots been matched up to the shooters' rifles? Again, if they were illegally targeting and killing a wild animal, that in itself should be a prosecutable offense. Perhaps not a major one, but enough to cause them some grief and cost money. (On the other hand, maybe not enough to make it worth a prosecutor's time and effort.)
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wastral
Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 199 | TRs | Pics
|
|
Wastral
Member
|
Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:30 pm |
|
|
| Tom wrote: | | Right, so is it possible the hunters knew where the bullet would end up? Or is shooting upslope never safe? I would think it depends on the terrain characteristics and other factors. Not that we know they actually shot upslope. It's certainly impled in the firefighters report but we really don't know what happened and hearing just one side of the story. |
Any shot fired is your responsibility. If the shots were actually in the firefighters direction, yes they are at fault. I bet they never even saw them. 200 yards above them..... 600 ft elevation difference and unknown range? You can't see jack a that elevation difference let alone a probable distance with the addition of even a steep slope would be laterally 400 yards distance. Its a near guarantee they were not shooting even 150 yards lower than the firefighters whom I bet they never even saw.
Shooting into a hillside is always the safest as it takes a massive screw up of epic proportions to go over a hill due to gravity. RUMI: tell the truth now. Stop lying. Hills are the best backstop. Simple thing called physics and reality of gravity. Shocking science I know. Downhill is also safe. Why? Gravity always pulls the bullet into the hillside. IF you shoot across a hillside, hill sides roll and duck and a slight miss can easily hit into a defile/valley you cannot see.
Take a standard 30-06 150grain bullet for hunting. Muzzle velocity 2800ft/s.
If fired flat, it will drop 25 to 30 feet at 4000ft altitude in a +half mile(1000yrds) and will drop to a velocity of 1300ft/s. in roughly 1.5seconds.
Unless you are expert, judging distance and elevation change is near impossible for the novice or amateur and everyone always guesses WAAAYYYY low even if you are shooting at a target above you on a hillside. Unless said target is at the top of a hill where the bullet could go over the hill, said hillside is the perfect backstop.
Slap Slap; 10 bugs dead, Blip Blop; Stumble Fall; Curse and Get up and Do it all Over Again; Reaching High For the Sky a Mile High; Topping Out Atop a Peak; Priceless
Slap Slap; 10 bugs dead, Blip Blop; Stumble Fall; Curse and Get up and Do it all Over Again; Reaching High For the Sky a Mile High; Topping Out Atop a Peak; Priceless
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
Posts: 3590 | TRs | Pics
Location: Port Angeles |
|
RumiDude
Marmota olympus
|
Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:46 pm |
|
|
| Wastral wrote: | | Any shot fired is your responsibility. If the shots were actually in the firefighters direction, yes they are at fault. |
Yes, we agree on that.| Wastral wrote: | | I bet they never even saw them. |
Still their responsibility. WASTRAL: tell the truth now. Stop lying. Simple thing called physics and reality of photons. If the firefighters could see them, they could see the firefighters. So if they didn't see the firefighters they were not being safe by making sure that there was no one in the background. If they saw the firefighters and fired anyway, then they are negligent nitwits that shouldn't be allowed to hold a firearm and have their trigger fingers removed by wire cutters.
Let's rehearse this situation a bit. These so called hunters were hunting along the PCT in late August. I suppose the only way they could have chosen a busier trail at that time would be to hunt along the Wonderland Trail. Add to that the close proximity to White Pass Ski Area, yea, they were really top shelf brainiacs. Mix in a little marmot plinking and the picture is starting to color in very nicely what sort of hunters they are.
The firefighters estimated the distance between them and the shooters was about 200 yards or 600 feet. But lets say they underestimated and make it an even 1000 feet. According to the map the firefighters were near the peak of Hogback Mtn and the hunters were on the PCT. I hope you aren't suggesting that a firearm capable of taking down a black bear is ineffective at 1000 feet even if it was firing up a slope.
I will reiterate, firing a rifle up such a slope like the one shown on the map in the pdf on the incident is not considered a safe practice. Every gun safety course I have ever known has emphasized this. I have used firearms since I was 12. I bought several firearms before I turned 16. I was a member of the gun club for Western Cartridge Co. and shot competitively until I graduated high school. I have hunted as well and did so until other interests crowded it out of my life.
Here is what my old gun club currently says about this topic:
4. Be Sure Of Your Target And What's Beyond It
No one can call a shot back. Once a gun fires, you have given up all control over where the shot will go or what it will strike. Don't shoot unless you know exactly what your shot is going to strike. Be sure that your bullet will not injure anyone or anything beyond your target. Firing at a movement or a noise without being absolutely certain of what you are shooting at constitutes criminal disregard for the safety of others. No target is so important that you cannot take the time before you pull the trigger to be absolutely certain of your target and where your shot will stop. Be aware that even a .22 short bullet can travel over 1 ¼ miles and a high velocity cartridge, such as a 30-06, can send its bullet more than 3 miles. Shotgun pellets can travel 500 yards, and shotgun slugs have a range of over half a mile. You should keep in mind how far a bullet will travel if it misses your intended target or ricochets in another direction.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ski
><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 12831 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma |
|
Ski
><((((°>
|
Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:02 pm |
|
|
| RumiDude wrote: | | Still their responsibility. |
Correct, and I cannot understand why anyone would even consider disputing this.
As for the rest of Rumi's comments, I am in full agreement: the shooters were card-carrying idiots.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
|
| Back to top |
|
|
uww
Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2015
Posts: 319 | TRs | Pics
|
|
uww
Member
|
Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:37 pm |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Randito
Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 9512 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
|
Randito
Snarky Member
|
Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:52 am |
|
|
I think if the injury had been more severe the hunter would have had more serious legal trouble. Had this happened in the states, I suspect the injured man's insurance company would have sought compensation for medical expenses.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Schenk
Off Leash Man
Joined: 16 Apr 2012
Posts: 2372 | TRs | Pics
Location: Traveling, with the bear, to the other side of the Mountain |
|
Schenk
Off Leash Man
|
Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:31 am |
|
|
| Tom wrote: | | Why is shooting uphill any worse than downhill or straight ahead? |
It is imperative that a shooter knows any, and all, potential points a bullet could hit.
Any bullet has the potential to go off target, for a number of reasons, but shooting uphill has a much greater potential for a "stray" bullet to travel out of sight.
It is especially dangerous/unwise to shoot if the target is uphill, and near the horizon.
A "stray" bullet, sometimes called a "flyer" can be caused by a shooter error like bad aim, nervous shaking, pulling the shot, etc...
It can also be cause by a faulty round. It is rare, but deaths have occurred due to "flyers" striking way off target.
And a barrel obstruction could cause a bullet to go off target.
So, if the target is 5 degrees below the horizon and uphill, and the bullet goes 5.1 degrees high for whatever reason, then it is flying off into the blind spot on the other side of the hill and the shooter cannot possibly know/see what it could hit.
Nature exists with a stark indifference to humans' situation.
Nature exists with a stark indifference to humans' situation.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wastral
Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 199 | TRs | Pics
|
|
Wastral
Member
|
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:34 pm |
|
|
| RumiDude wrote: | | The firefighters estimated the distance between them and the shooters was about 200 yards or 600 feet. But lets say they underestimated and make it an even 1000 feet. According to the map the firefighters were near the peak of Hogback Mtn and the hunters were on the PCT. I hope you aren't suggesting that a firearm capable of taking down a black bear is ineffective at 1000 feet even if it was firing up a slope.
Rumi |
RUMI learn how to read... or better yet if you can, stop lying for obvious reasons, or better yet:
LOOK AT THE DAMNED INCIDENCE MAP.
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=bbc1d589-abfe-2f45-e2a9-860ba73b4ba5&forceDialog=0
"200 yards BELOW" is 600 feet BELOW them. NOT 200 yards AWAY from.
Fire fighters were on TOP OF A RIDGE 600ft ABOVE THEM.
LOOK AT THE DAMNED INCIDENCE MAP.
I don't know about you, but a 600ft high hill is near the worlds best backstop for a bullet when shooting. The only thing better is a mountain the size of Mt. Ranier.
That being said, anyone going 'hunting' on the PCT where you know there will be a LOT of people is short a lot of brain cells. That is another point we agree on.
EDIT: PS: 600ft below is the equivalent of standing on top of the space needle and waving all the while expecting someone below to actually see you........ HAHAHAHAHA Talk about fools short a few brain cells...
Slap Slap; 10 bugs dead, Blip Blop; Stumble Fall; Curse and Get up and Do it all Over Again; Reaching High For the Sky a Mile High; Topping Out Atop a Peak; Priceless
Slap Slap; 10 bugs dead, Blip Blop; Stumble Fall; Curse and Get up and Do it all Over Again; Reaching High For the Sky a Mile High; Topping Out Atop a Peak; Priceless
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Disclosure: As an Amazon Associate NWHikers.net earns from qualifying purchases when you use our link(s). |
What happens if life/limb/property are accidentally damaged say a mile away? 