| Previous :: Next Topic |
| Author |
Message |
Silvatici
Member
Joined: 30 Mar 2018
Posts: 35 | TRs | Pics
|
| DIYSteve wrote: | | It's possible they were duly experienced alpinists |
I think you missed my point. This group made several poor choices leading up to their predicament that "duly experienced alpinists" would not have made. Also, I'll point out that my comments have not been directed at this incident solely but at the larger trend of frivolous or easily avoidable rescues, of which a few have been mentioned in this thread.
“The beauty of things was born before eyes and sufficient to itself; the heartbreaking beauty
Will remain when there is no heart to break for it.”
“The beauty of things was born before eyes and sufficient to itself; the heartbreaking beauty
Will remain when there is no heart to break for it.”
|
| Back to top |
  
|
|
Ski
><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 12832 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma |
|
Ski
><((((°>
|
 Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:52 pm |
|
|
| Silvatici wrote: | | "...frivolous or easily avoidable rescues..." |
Yes, every one of them could have been easily avoided if the subjects of those SAR missions had just stayed home.
Hiking and climbing isn't like getting a drivers license. There's no "test" you have to pass in order to walk up a trail or climb a mountain.
Some people do dumb stuff. That's always going to happen. George Mallory could have easily avoided his fate if he'd just stayed at home sitting by the fire in Cheshire.
What would you propose be done, exactly? Do you believe the onus for preparing would-be wall climbers is the responsibility of the urban climbing gyms? How does that become their bailiwick? How does that fit into their business model?
The Mountaineers offer all kinds of classes for aspiring hikers and climbers. Some people put up their money and sign up. Some people just lace up their tennis shoes, put on their denim jeans, and hit the trail. Some people never experience being lost, falling down, getting stranded on a wall, or losing their mittens. Some people unwittingly become the subjects of SAR operations.
Some people set their houses on fire. Should we not send the fire department to their house to put out the fire because they made poor choices and stupidly burned down their own house?
What, exactly, are you proposing as a solution for what you perceive to be a problem?
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Silvatici
Member
Joined: 30 Mar 2018
Posts: 35 | TRs | Pics
|
| Ski wrote: | | What, exactly, are you proposing as a solution for what you perceive to be a problem? |
Read back a little further Ski and you'll find it.
“The beauty of things was born before eyes and sufficient to itself; the heartbreaking beauty
Will remain when there is no heart to break for it.”
“The beauty of things was born before eyes and sufficient to itself; the heartbreaking beauty
Will remain when there is no heart to break for it.”
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Silvatici
Member
Joined: 30 Mar 2018
Posts: 35 | TRs | Pics
|
Also, just cause this is a ridiculous assertion but an entertaining analogy, I never suggested that we shouldn't send the FD to put the fire out. I suggested that people shouldn't set fire to their houses and that if people were going around talking about burning down their house, that maybe the people around them should assertively express their disapproval for that plan. Also, that maybe the FD, after putting out said fire, might have a conversation with the offending party about how arson, even of one's own abode, is generally frowned upon.
I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse or if you just didn't bother to read my previous posts, but it seems like you've completely misunderstood everything I've said.
“The beauty of things was born before eyes and sufficient to itself; the heartbreaking beauty
Will remain when there is no heart to break for it.”
“The beauty of things was born before eyes and sufficient to itself; the heartbreaking beauty
Will remain when there is no heart to break for it.”
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ski
><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 12832 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma |
|
Ski
><((((°>
|
Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:19 pm |
|
|
No, actually I've read every post in this thread.
You believe the onus is on "the climbing community" and the urban "climbing gyms"?
How do you see that actually happening on the ground?
As I said, The Mountaineers have programs to teach people.
The "climbing community" is a disorganized bunch of individuals who owe no allegiance to anyone but themselves and their climbing partners. How are they responsible for those who venture out into the hills unprepared?
The urban "climbing gyms" are independently owned private for-profit business operations. Are you suggesting that "we" tell them how to run their businesses?
FTR: the guy in West Seattle was only trying to kill a spider, he didn't intend to burn down his house.
I very seriously doubt that any of those individuals stuck on a wall on Mt. Stuart got into their predicament by design.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Randito
Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 9513 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
|
Randito
Snarky Member
|
Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:20 pm |
|
|
| Silvatici wrote: | | I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse or if you just didn't bother to read my previous posts, but it seems like you've completely misunderstood everything I've said. |
I think Ski and are both responding to your wild speculation about the climbers experience profiles and you've judged them very harshly.
I don't know the climbers, but even if they were complete noobs that had no business on the route, I'm still glad that the headline was: "climbers rescued" instead of "climbers remains located"
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ski
><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 12832 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma |
|
Ski
><((((°>
|
Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:28 pm |
|
|
| RandyHiker wrote: | | I don't know the climbers, but even if they were complete noobs that had no business on the route, I'm still glad that the headline was: "climbers rescued" instead of "climbers remains located" |
And I have no idea who the guy was with the "Pebbles" ponytail who managed to get himself stuck up on the haystack at Mt. Si, but I'm glad they were able to hoist him out of there in one piece, alive, instead of inside a body bag.
Yes, it's perfectly acceptable to question the judgment of people who do really dumb stuff like that, but there's no way to regulate human behavior.
Some people do incredibly stupid things:
In 2010, statistics showed that 8 adolescents died from gunshot wounds playing Russian Roulette in the US. 6 were suicides, while 2 were accidents.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tom
Admin
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 17854 | TRs | Pics
|
|
Tom
Admin
|
Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:30 pm |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Silvatici
Member
Joined: 30 Mar 2018
Posts: 35 | TRs | Pics
|
| RandyHiker wrote: | | I don't know the climbers, but even if they were complete noobs that had no business on the route, I'm still glad that the headline was: "climbers rescued" instead of "climbers remains located" |
Agreed, and I never suggested otherwise.
| RandyHiker wrote: | | you've judged them very harshly. |
Have I? I'm hardly calling for a public lynching. It's evident to me, based on my knowledge of that route and the information available that several poor decisions were made. Have you been on this route and can you comment on why they might have reasonably bailed in the direction they did? Or why they wouldn't be carrying overnight gear?
“The beauty of things was born before eyes and sufficient to itself; the heartbreaking beauty
Will remain when there is no heart to break for it.”
“The beauty of things was born before eyes and sufficient to itself; the heartbreaking beauty
Will remain when there is no heart to break for it.”
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AlpineRose
Member
Joined: 08 May 2012
Posts: 1953 | TRs | Pics
|
A person's wallet is the most sensitive organ of the body. Much more so than the brain. So until we start charging for rescues, idiocy will abound. Note I'm not arguing for charging one way or the other, just making the statement.
I wonder if the number of rescues will increase beyond the capacity of a volunteer SAR to provide them. is the number SAR rescuers increasing in proportion to the number of rescuees?
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ski
><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 12832 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma |
|
Ski
><((((°>
|
Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:45 pm |
|
|
| Tom wrote: | | Pebbles was the rescuer. |
huh? no... "Pebbles" ponytail guy was the one they hoisted off the haystack.... and he left the banana peel behind.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Silvatici
Member
Joined: 30 Mar 2018
Posts: 35 | TRs | Pics
|
“The beauty of things was born before eyes and sufficient to itself; the heartbreaking beauty
Will remain when there is no heart to break for it.”
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Yana
Hater
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
Posts: 4212 | TRs | Pics
Location: Out Hating |
|
Yana
Hater
|
Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:01 pm |
|
|
| AlpineRose wrote: | | A person's wallet is the most sensitive organ of the body. Much more so than the brain. So until we start charging for rescues, idiocy will abound. Note I'm not arguing for charging one way or the other, just making the statement. |
Except that only works if people have foresight. No one goes outdoors planning to get lost or injured. In fact, the number one sentiment we hear from those we rescue is "I never thought this would happen to me***." The wallet trick might influence the possibility of a second time, but it's not going to work for the first time.
I have seen people who have postponed calling for help or tried to refuse help from SAR because they thought they will be charged. While some of the time this attitude might result in a lack of SAR mission as they work it out on their own, it often results in a much more complicated SAR effort and sometimes less positive outcomes for the people we rescue.
***okay, actually, the number one sentiment is mild embarrassment to utter mortification, which by itself is a motivator for most people to attempt to avoid being SAR subjects in the future.
PLAY SAFE! SKI ONLY IN CLOCKWISE DIRECTION! LET'S ALL HAVE FUN TOGETHER!
PLAY SAFE! SKI ONLY IN CLOCKWISE DIRECTION! LET'S ALL HAVE FUN TOGETHER!
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ski
><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 12832 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma |
|
Ski
><((((°>
|
Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:02 pm |
|
|
| Silvatici wrote: | | I'm far from alone in making this suggestion. |
Well.. that's all fine and well in theory, but the bottom line is that the urban "climbing gyms" are independently owned, for-profit, private business enterprises and their responsibility is to their stockholders (or owners, if not incorporated.)
Whether or not they choose to consider some of the suggestions made in the article you've cited depends entirely on the old "what's in it for us?" factor.
You cannot tell a private business how to run their show.
As for the "climbing community", it's a case of "you can lead a horse to water". Those who wish to be "mentored" will choose that route. Those who choose to learn by trial and error will learn the hard way.
I guess I'm not really sure what it is about this subject that causes you to be so agitated about SAR operations plucking people out of predicaments that they might not have gotten into had they used better judgment. As I said above at least a couple times: people do dumb stuff.
I am not, by any means, suggesting that "do nothing" is the appropriate course of action.
I think that the social media venues like Facebook/Instagram have been a major contributing factor for some of the arguably idiotic stunts people have pulled lately that have been the cause of SAR operations, like Mr. "Pebbles" Ponytail in the video Tom cited just above.
But again, it is not the responsibility of "the climbing community" to handhold (or police) knuckleheads who choose to tackle 12000-foot peaks in denim jeans and tennis shoes, nor is it the responsibility of urban "climbing gyms" to provide any more than a place for people to climb up man-made walls inside buildings.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pahoehoe
Member
Joined: 12 Oct 2017
Posts: 563 | TRs | Pics
|
|
Pahoehoe
Member
|
Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:36 pm |
|
|
I dont know, I think communities are responsible for their own. I think the climbing community should mentor their young... err foster a culture that values the idea of the experienced helping the inexperienced..
The problem is that you can't be a dick about it if you want anyone to pay attention..
Like the recent complaints about mailbox... those "bad hikers" aren't going to listen to the "good hikers" bitching at them about their music and flip flops and jeans and mailboxes.
The "good hikers" need to befriend the "bad hikers".
We don't wanna do that anymore because we have the internet and social media instead of newsletters and slide shows.
I say more fund raisers for SAR.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Disclosure: As an Amazon Associate NWHikers.net earns from qualifying purchases when you use our link(s). |
