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Wiki summmary last edited by Windstorm on Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:00 pm (this post can be edited by any member) |
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Drinkupjimmy
Wanderer like you
Joined: 17 Sep 2018
Posts: 11 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle, WA |
| Ski wrote: | | Doppelganger wrote: | | "...I see more acquiescence from an organization..." |
| crazyhikerCH wrote: | | "...the FS and DNR seem to be afraid to stand up to..." |
While I am not in complete disagreement with the underlying sentiment in these comments, it should be considered that it is not within the purview of individual members here to tell either Peter Forbes or Jean Fike how they should be running their operations.
As nwhikers member RumiDude said in another post in another thread long ago: "You have to let the land managers manage."
Nothing constructive is going to come of berating either DNR or USFS about the actions they deem appropriate to take.
It would be far better to address concerns, supported by facts, and allow those in the positions of authority to deal with the matter.
Nobody here is going to benefit in the long term from the imposition of more restrictive regulations in the area. |
I agree with your last paragraph. If someone can hike in and see what’s going on at the base camp without disrupting them, that would be very beneficial to take to forest service. That’s exactly what I did with the pictures I took at the trailhead. I’m not happy with forest service, but at the same time all I can do is follow the LNT rule and report anything I find harmful to the wilderness out there. Anything beyond that is out of my control. Vilifying Kevin or Budd is not going to change how forest service responds to the complaints. If anything it will only discredit us. And they can’t police a Facebook group. Make sure to keep your claims based on facts and not based on how we perceive them and their personalities or their hiking experience. I agree with most everyone on those, but it’s not something to bother forest service with.
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creakykneehiker
Creaky knees member
Joined: 21 Sep 2018
Posts: 13 | TRs | Pics
Location: Stanwood |
As a matter of stewardship, I wonder if this public land will become hiking permit only areas due to the increased number of hikers coming and going for this search and supply carry in. Also I wonder how many new false "trails" will be pounded into the mountain side that will become hazards for the casual day hikers that are flocking to the Cascades.
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SwitchbackFisher
Boot buster
Joined: 24 Feb 2018
Posts: 364 | TRs | Pics
Location: Wa |
| Doppelganger wrote: | | AlpineRose wrote: | | Sorry, buddy, carrying a tool, any tool, implies a willingness to use said object. Surely one doesn't carry because they think it's a good luck charm, like, say, a rabbit's foot or a St. Christopher medal. So I think generalizations are warranted in this case - as in see my first sentence. For example, I carry an EpiPen, not because I want to use it, but I will if I have to.
"Last resort in self defense"????????????? What on earth does that even mean? Obviously, it depends on who is interpreting what that means. I don't trust that bunch up there to think it means what you or I think it might mean. They have so far shown a serious lack of judgment in their operation. So my concern is for whatever/whoever it is they feel "threatened" by, whether it's wildlife attracted to their food, hikers/climbers up there enjoying the last few days of glorious fall weather, or an FS/LE person checking things out. A concern I think falls into the category of "stewardship". |
Burck17 may not have seen the video(s) where Carr has made threats and expressed his willingness/eagerness for action. Based on Carr's past behavior, there should be some mention of these things here in Stewardship as precaution. There is clear risk of a confrontation, and Carr has stated in videos that he is prepared for this. This information should be available beforehand so people can be aware of the consequences. |
I have not seen any such video and did search for it but not very hard. ( if someone pms me with it I will gladly watch) I will also add that while everyone has a different tolerance for people and what they feel threatening I would say the probability of any hiker having issues with this group is incredibly low. What motive would they possibly have to hurt anyone minding their own business.
As far as the trash issues are concerned is anyone aware of the nearest dumpster to the trailhead. It may be worth getting one placed near the trailhead if that helps the messes stay cleaned up in that area. Also does anyone know the number of volunteers up there? That could also have a big impact on the damage they do.
I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
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olderthanIusedtobe
Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Posts: 7709 | TRs | Pics
Location: Shoreline |
| burck17 wrote: | | I have not seen any such video and did search for it but not very hard. |
I hadn't seen it previously, just heard it referred to many times. It's on the first page of that Teton Gravity link that is pinned on the top of this thread.
edited--post #14
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olderthanIusedtobe
Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Posts: 7709 | TRs | Pics
Location: Shoreline |
| creakykneehiker wrote: | | As a matter of stewardship, I wonder if this public land will become hiking permit only areas due to the increased number of hikers coming and going for this search and supply carry in. |
That might be coming eventually to a bunch of trails, not just this one. Nearby Gothic Basin is getting hammered. There have been complaints about Robin Lakes getting overused for years. Many others too I'm sure. Now I'm wandering off topic again, but it's sort of tangential. I don't like restrictions on accessing public lands outside of National Parks, but maybe it's becoming necessary.
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Jordan
y
Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Posts: 561 | TRs | Pics
Location: shoreline |
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Jordan
y
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 Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:00 am |
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| Drinkupjimmy wrote: | | Hi everybody. I was up hiking at Gothic Basin today which is very close to Vesper. Multiple people asked them a couple days ago to remove the food or get bear cans and they said they would. So I went up to check today while in the area. I had this weird feeling they hadn’t done a single thing to secure their food.
When I got there I saw a plastic bin full of soda cans and a Kobalt utility box completely unsecured and full of food. None of it is bear proof.
Also there were notes on both boxes asking for food donations. This is important as I’ve been told repeatedly by members of the group (who aren’t even in Washington state) that the box is completely empty and the volunteers are not asking for more food donations. As of 8pm September 23rd both of those statements are FALSE. Right now at Vesper trailhead there is a utility box full of food being left out unattended overnight. I just want to get the facts straight.
I emptied out the plastic bin full of soda cans and took the bin and the signs with me hoping to keep people from leaving more food. In hindsight I would have taken all of the soda cans as well because there are dozens of them being hiked into the base camp. None of this food is hiker friendly and I’m wondering how the trash will be removed. Are they going to hike down garbage bags full of soda cans and food wrappers? Are they going to helo them out? Given their track record, something tells me that they’re going to trash their base camp and leave it for us to clean up.
Multiple people have asked nicely and they’ve refused to clean it up. They propose that if someone wants it secured so badly they can come fix it themselves. I have made sure they know that they are responsible for properly storing their food up there. No one else. They say they’re coming to get it tomorrow. I don’t believe them.
We’ll be contacting the ranger station tomorrow morning. The food doesn’t even scratch the surface for my issues with all of this. The threats. The fact that they’re encouraging people to come up there and volunteer without mentioning potentially hazardous road or weather conditions. Part of me wishes I had never spoken up. I’ve received a lot of backlash and even some petty irrelevant jabs about my marriage. But I have received a lot of positive feedback in addition to the negative. People have thanked me for speaking up and cleaning up after them and doing my best to keep everyone out there safe and that means a lot to me. That was the goal!
Edit: redacted comments to keep it strictly informative.
Here are pictures of what I saw at the trailhead last night. https://imgur.com/gallery/ZYxXto8 |
Good for you man. I was thinking about doing the same thing tomorrow, then read you already did it. Why food at the trailhead this long after the incident?
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Anne Elk
BrontosaurusTheorist
Joined: 07 Sep 2018
Posts: 2423 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle |
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Anne Elk
BrontosaurusTheorist
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Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:34 am |
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| burck17 wrote: | | As far as the trash issues are concerned is anyone aware of the nearest dumpster to the trailhead. It may be worth getting one placed near the trailhead if that helps the messes stay cleaned up in that area. |
I've never seen messes at that trailhead, but putting a dumpster there would be exactly the wrong thing to do. It would just be a critter magnet, unless it was one of those special bear-proof ones (see link to Yosemite bear story earlier in this thread). The Sunrise Mine road occasionally takes a slide and is otherwise too long for regular trash pickups. Besides, people should be packing out whatever they pack in. It's not a wilderness trail head, but that's beside the point.
I've never understood people who have to leave their messes behind. I still remember one trip up to Lake Constance, walking over to the water's edge after setting up my camp and seeing ... macaroni that some nitwit dumped into the water. That stuff probably still hasn't decomposed.
"There are yahoos out there. It’s why we can’t have nice things." - Tom Mahood
"There are yahoos out there. It’s why we can’t have nice things." - Tom Mahood
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trisaratop
Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2018
Posts: 12 | TRs | Pics
Location: Shoreline, WA |
There was recent discussion on the FSS page about setting up "aid stations" for Sam. Basically like the bag drops except with way more stuff. Fortunately I don't think it will get any traction, but I can't believe anyone is even suggesting that idea 50+ days in.
If there's anything good that comes out of this situation, perhaps it'll be education on hiking safety and LNT principles. I have heard several say they've seriously reevaluated their previous position on those aspects, which is awesome. I hope that will continue.
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pula58
Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 589 | TRs | Pics
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pula58
Member
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Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:44 am |
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In terms of stewardship, this private search effort brings up the question of balancing the need for stewardship of public lands, vs. the needs of a single family and/or person.
I think this particular incident has erred (quite a lot) toward the rights/wants/desires of a single family over the greater public good, the good of the "commons."
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BigBrunyon
Member
Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 1458 | TRs | Pics
Location: the fitness gyms!! |
| AlpineRose wrote: | | Still, all the good info remains there for the viewing. |
Ah its just reruns at this point!
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snowmonkey
Member
Joined: 23 May 2014
Posts: 88 | TRs | Pics
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| freeme wrote: | | Few of us could lead a helping hand cleaning up. I am willing to help. |
I absolutely disagree with the command center and all that goes with it but agree, that we as LNT practitioners and stewards of wilderness must put that aside, swallow our opinions and do our best to clean up after this ends. We and the wilderness areas will benefit from our own efforts - That is what stewardship is all about. ie Lend a Hand, Give a Hoot, Only You etc
Ocian in view! O! The joy!
William Clark
Ocian in view! O! The joy!
William Clark
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rbuzby
Attention Surplus
Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 1011 | TRs | Pics
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rbuzby
Attention Surplus
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Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:38 am |
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pula58
Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 589 | TRs | Pics
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pula58
Member
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Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:44 pm |
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I sent this email (below) just now to Peter Forbes, Darrington Ranger station. I suggest that as many people as possible speak up about this: Thanks!
"Hello Peter,
I saw this video today taken from the so-called "command center" up on Vesper Peak.
Is the wood in the video (for the wood stove) being taken from the landscape up there?
Are they cutting limbs off of trees and/or gathering deadwood? Isn't it important for deadwood to be left on the ground so that it can decompose and become nutrients for the alpine soil?
Many of us in the hiking community are concerned and troubled about what's going on up there.
https://www.facebook.com/bud.carr.3/videos/2130789290287736/"
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Arete
Member
Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 137 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bothell, WA |
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Arete
Member
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Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:46 pm |
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| pula58 wrote: | | Isn't it important for deadwood to be left on the ground so that it can decompose and become nutrients for the alpine soil? |
Thank you for sending this. You are absolutely correct. In addition there are other very important roles that woody debris on the ground plays in forests, and in particular in these subalpine forests. It acts as important habitat features for small mammals and can create protective microsites that aid in plant seedling survival (in a harsh environment where reproductive success is limited) - these things among others.
We all impact these environments with our presence up there, but the degree to which this is happening in a concentrated manner near this base camp is very worrisome (not to mention what appears to be a high degree of disinterest in the importance of this and how unnecessary it is to the objectives and function of this search). Wood develops so terribly slowly in these environments and its removal (live or dead) can have effects for a long time period. I know there are people at USFS and DNR that are quite knowledgeable on these matters and I am disappointed to not see more active management of this going on (though, perhaps it is and I am not privy to it).
It would be great to communicate these concerns to the land managers.
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partlycloudy
Person
Joined: 18 Sep 2018
Posts: 5 | TRs | Pics
Location: Mountlake Terrace, WA |
| F8AW8S wrote: | | The link to the alternative FB group seems to be broken again. |
They’ve made the group “secret” now so I think you have to be added by a “friend” who is already part of the group. There isn’t much productive conversation happening in there IMO.
Edit: there is talk in that group of emailing the land managers though, and emails for Forbes, Fike and Franz were posted yesterday. So hopefully if enough of us contact them, we can find out more about their response to what’s happening up there.
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