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schifferj
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schifferj
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PostSat Oct 06, 2018 6:27 pm 
I was just checking out the new recreation.gov website looking for a permit for any of the areas within the "Enchantment Permit Area" for the remainder of the year. The new site required me to reset my password before I could log on. I then attempted to book a permit for Stewart Lake and noted that the NEW price is now $10 per night per person. I'm curious as to the what the cost of a lottery application will be for 2019 and more curious as to what I would be willing to pay as I am a consistent lottery "loser."

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reststep
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PostSat Oct 06, 2018 7:00 pm 
What was the cost per night before? I liked it better when the forest service was running it.

"The mountains are calling and I must go." - John Muir
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reststep
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PostSat Oct 06, 2018 7:58 pm 
When the forest service was running it you could put a range of dates on your application. For example you could say any date in August or September and if they drew your name and any date in that time frame was open you could get a permit. Unfortunately that option is no longer available. What is recreation.gov any way. Are they a private company?

"The mountains are calling and I must go." - John Muir
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schifferj
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PostSat Oct 06, 2018 8:44 pm 
reststep wrote:
What is recreation.gov any way. Are they a private company?
No, it is a government run website wherein you can make reservations for a host of different sites and activities that now fall under its purvey. It is an ever expanding, many headed hydra. It manages reservations for over 100,000 locations and 3500 activities. I remember well when Enchantment Permits were done by a letter to the ranger station in Leavenworth and that you could specify a range or dates.

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schifferj
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PostSat Oct 06, 2018 8:45 pm 
reststep wrote:
What was the cost per night before?
$5 per person per night plus a $6 registration "fee" for the permit.

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ahughjass
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PostSun Oct 07, 2018 5:40 am 
schifferj wrote:
reststep wrote:
What is recreation.gov any way. Are they a private company?
No, it is a government run website wherein you can make reservations for a host of different sites and activities that now fall under its purvey. It is an ever expanding, many headed hydra. It manages reservations for over 100,000 locations and 3500 activities. I remember well when Enchantment Permits were done by a letter to the ranger station in Leavenworth and that you could specify a range or dates.
Actually recreation.gov is a government website that is contracted out to a private, for profit, company. Down in the Bend area there is the Obsidian Trail. The permit is free, but they only way to get one is through recreation.gov that charges a $6 processing fee. If you go to the physical backcountry desk to get one in person, they still require you to get it through recreation.gov. We were in the Wasatch mountains near Salt Lake City. We went to a forest service campground to get a site. They were all empty, but had "reserved" signs (reserved through rec...gov). We couldn't get a spot in an empty campground. I am old enough to have experienced our recreation areas without recreation.gov. It was a much superior system when it wasn't run by a for profit entity.

I go to the gym religiously.... Christmas and Easter I love sports-bars. Because they collect all the people I don't want to hang out with and put them in one room.
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fairweather friend
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PostSun Oct 07, 2018 7:47 am 
Recreation.gov is basically a subsidiary of Booz Allen Hamilton, a "management consulting company." They were awarded a no-bid contract (from the Bush Administration, I think) to manage permits and reservations on federal lands, and have since added many, many smaller "clients" like states or counties that also manage recreation areas. YOU (the outdoor enthusiast) are NOT their client! As you will soon find out when their reservation system screws you out of a permit you won fair and square. Administration fees for reservations and lotteries recently increased from $6 to $10. (Some permits are WAY more expensive than this, like $250 for a permit to run the Green or Yampa Rivers through Dinosaur National Monument.) - One of my biggest beefs with rec.gov is the basic "e-commerce" model they used to create their website. The point of e-commerce is to get you to spend more money by adding lots of items to your "cart." (Think Amazon.) When you put an item in your cart it doesn't affect anyone else, since others can still buy the item. This works great when the items "for sale" are cheap and plentiful. It does not work well when the items for sale are basically priceless. (Your odds of winning many permits is such that you will NEVER win one, even if you enter the lottery every year from birth to death. IMO, that makes such a permit priceless.) But let's say someone posts a cancelled permit on rec.gov and someone else browsing the website sees it. They can immediately put that permit in their cart (and prevent anyone else from claiming it) without even logging into rec.gov! And if you don't have to log into the website to claim a permit, then someone with a little tech savvy can write a program to snap up cancelled permits the instant they pop up on rec.gov. This very thing has been happening for years, so I hope that one of the recent changes on rec.gov is to make it so you can only claim a permit if you are logged into your account. Now they just need to figure out how to prevent multiple accounts from the same person (or their dog.) This is another problem with the e-commerce system: the seller couldn't care less who you are, so long as you pay for the items in your cart. To sum up my view: if you treat wilderness permits like they are basically worthless (as rec.gov has done for years), you will end up with a sh##ty, easy-to-scam system. But if you start with the premise that wilderness permits are priceless, then perhaps you can create a system that can manage permits in a fair and equitable way.

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schifferj
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schifferj
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PostMon Oct 08, 2018 9:05 am 
schifferj wrote:
I was just checking out the new recreation.gov website looking for a permit for any of the areas within the "Enchantment Permit Area" for the remainder of the year. The new site required me to reset my password before I could log on. I then attempted to book a permit for Stewart Lake and noted that the NEW price is now $10 per night per person.
I was incorrect in stating that the price had increased. The fee of $5 per day remains the same. A one night stay counts as two days at $5 per day. Total cost for a one night stay is $10 plus the $6 administration fee or $16. Sorry for the mistake.

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schifferj
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schifferj
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PostMon Oct 08, 2018 9:15 am 
ahughjass wrote:
e were in the Wasatch mountains near Salt Lake City. We went to a forest service campground to get a site. They were all empty, but had "reserved" signs (reserved through rec...gov). We couldn't get a spot in an empty campground.
I had a very similar experience at a FS campground at Priest Lake Idaho. In my case about half the available campsites were empty and all of those reserved for recreation.gov. No internet/cell service up in the boonies of North Idaho so I couldn't get a campsite at a half empty campground.

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schifferj
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PostMon Oct 08, 2018 9:22 am 
fairweather friend wrote:
But let's say someone posts a cancelled permit on rec.gov and someone else browsing the website sees it. They can immediately put that permit in their cart (and prevent anyone else from claiming it) without even logging into rec.gov! And if you don't have to log into the website to claim a permit, then someone with a little tech savvy can write a program to snap up cancelled permits the instant they pop up on rec.gov. This very thing has been happening for years, so I hope that one of the recent changes on rec.gov is to make it so you can only claim a permit if you are logged into your account. Now they just need to figure out how to prevent multiple accounts from the same person (or their dog.) This is another problem with the e-commerce system: the seller couldn't care less who you are, so long as you pay for the items in your cart.
I found Fairweather Friend's entire post regarding recreation.gov to be fascinating especially the part about wilderness permits being priceless. I just did a trial run on recreation.gov. I was not logged into my account and attempted place an available permit into my cart. When I did so I was required to log into my recreation.gov account to put it into my cart. Immediately, a 15 minute timer began to count down. At the expiration of that 15 minute time interval the permit was removed from my cart and put back in the system. I was happy to see that apparent change to the system.

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Malachai Constant
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PostMon Oct 08, 2018 9:24 am 
Same thing for hiking permits in the Sierra, luckily when you show up at a visitor center there are almost always no shows.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Matt Lemke
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PostMon Oct 08, 2018 10:38 am 
fairweather friend wrote:
Recreation.gov is basically a subsidiary of Booz Allen Hamilton, a "management consulting company." They were awarded a no-bid contract (from the Bush Administration, I think) to manage permits and reservations on federal lands, and have since added many, many smaller "clients" like states or counties that also manage recreation areas. YOU (the outdoor enthusiast) are NOT their client! As you will soon find out when their reservation system screws you out of a permit you won fair and square. Administration fees for reservations and lotteries recently increased from $6 to $10. (Some permits are WAY more expensive than this, like $250 for a permit to run the Green or Yampa Rivers through Dinosaur National Monument.) - One of my biggest beefs with rec.gov is the basic "e-commerce" model they used to create their website. The point of e-commerce is to get you to spend more money by adding lots of items to your "cart." (Think Amazon.) When you put an item in your cart it doesn't affect anyone else, since others can still buy the item. This works great when the items "for sale" are cheap and plentiful. It does not work well when the items for sale are basically priceless. (Your odds of winning many permits is such that you will NEVER win one, even if you enter the lottery every year from birth to death. IMO, that makes such a permit priceless.) But let's say someone posts a cancelled permit on rec.gov and someone else browsing the website sees it. They can immediately put that permit in their cart (and prevent anyone else from claiming it) without even logging into rec.gov! And if you don't have to log into the website to claim a permit, then someone with a little tech savvy can write a program to snap up cancelled permits the instant they pop up on rec.gov. This very thing has been happening for years, so I hope that one of the recent changes on rec.gov is to make it so you can only claim a permit if you are logged into your account. Now they just need to figure out how to prevent multiple accounts from the same person (or their dog.) This is another problem with the e-commerce system: the seller couldn't care less who you are, so long as you pay for the items in your cart. To sum up my view: if you treat wilderness permits like they are basically worthless (as rec.gov has done for years), you will end up with a sh##ty, easy-to-scam system. But if you start with the premise that wilderness permits are priceless, then perhaps you can create a system that can manage permits in a fair and equitable way.
My solution to the problem, though people may berate me for it, is to just ignore all the beurocratic bullsh## and just go anyways. Bivy in a place no one goes and leave no trace.

The Pacific coast to the Great Plains = my playground!!! SummitPost Profile See my website at: http://www.lemkeclimbs.com
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