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DIYSteve
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PostFri Oct 19, 2018 1:19 pm 
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RandyHiker wrote:
And that was a POS Chevette

did chicks dig it?
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RandyHiker
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PostFri Oct 19, 2018 1:30 pm 
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DIYSteve wrote:
RandyHiker wrote:
And that was a POS Chevette

did chicks dig it?

I was already off the market at that point and had my  1st of three kids.
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RandyHiker
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PostFri Oct 19, 2018 1:43 pm 
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For everyone, independent of beacon age and type.  I recommend visiting the "beacon parks" that have been cropping up at local ski areas and spending a few hours doing practice searches and keep a record of your and your companions times.   I believe that search practice improves search times and lessens the chances of making mistakes during the search. Be sure to include probing in the practice  It will also provide valuable information about which companions have a better chance of saving your ass on a very bad day .

We get plenty of lousy weather/snow days in the PNW where this would be a good use of time.
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WaState
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PostFri Oct 19, 2018 6:46 pm 
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My experience to date the old ortavox f1 transciever has a longer range than all digital beacons because it is
analog.  Of course as technolgy moves forward so digital is bound to improve in range .

I have done searchs and on average the f1 is as fast as digital beacons  on single burial searchs. In my experience the old f1 is better than the first out digital beacons that I used.

The newest transcievers are clearly better with multiple burial searches.

If only two people on a outing the f1 is as good, at the least--  in my experience, and is more
simple to use, less likely to fumble around with features

To the OP and others just find out for yourself.  The only practical difference is with the f1 you
follow the magnetic field arks which is easy to do.
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RandyHiker
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PostFri Oct 19, 2018 9:28 pm 
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WaState wrote:
In my experience the old f1 is better than the first out digital beacons that I used.

Which "first out digital beacons"? -- For example the Orthovox X1 from 2002 was certainly a dog and gets a Zero Star rating on https://beaconreviews.com

It would be useful to know which digital beacons your experience is with -- particularly if that experience is limited to digital beacons from more than a decade ago.
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DIYSteve
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PostMon Oct 22, 2018 8:13 am 
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All electronic circuits are prone to degradation. When RF circuity degrades with time, it often results in frequency drift. Antennas also degrade with time. If one insists on analog, combo analog/digital beacons are available.

WaState wrote:
The only practical difference is with the f1 you follow the magnetic field arks [sic]

Just not true.  Following an induction line almost always results in longer search time and walking distance than modern 3-antenna digital beacons. Objective testing consistently confirms that modern digital beacons result in faster single burial searches -- even when the search starts outside the range of the beacon (and thus requires a rough grid search). In our testing (avg. >1x/year for 20+ years) I have yet to see an analog beacon yield a search as fast as digital.

DSP Sport has been tested to have working reception ranges of 45m/148' (horizontal) and 42m/143' (in line), excellent for digital beacons. Smart travel (e.g., eyes on) should get the searchers within that range. If not, it most cases the time to do a rough search will be offset by faster digital search. One could make a strained case for singular hypothetical circumstances where old analog beacons might have an edge, which IMV is akin to the "I knew a guy who died because he was wearing a seat belt" urban legend.

Again, if you're stuck on analog, get a dual analog/digital beacon with fresh circuitry and superior search functions.
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trestle
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PostTue Oct 23, 2018 12:56 pm 
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RandyHiker wrote:
trestle wrote:
Not obsolete.

So you admit that you don't know what the word obsolete means.

Thank you for your positive contributions to the forum.

--------------
"Life favors the prepared." - Edna Mode
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WaState
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PostTue Oct 30, 2018 8:19 am 
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Quote:



Again, if you're stuck on analog, get a dual analog/digital beacon with fresh circuitry and superior search functions


I have yet to use a combo ,  could be a good option if the analog part allows a longer range/sensitivity, which it will far as I know(why build it otherwise?)

I would think additional complexity can be undesirable.

Magnetic field line arks do not slow you down searching for one beacon. .  Two arks from one object point you in a center direction.


The point i am making is a good operating f1 searching for a single transciever is fine in my opinion.

By all means spend money if you need or want to. In larger groups ,ie more than two burials then some of the newer transcievers are clearly better.
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WaState
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PostTue Oct 30, 2018 8:59 am 
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The real question is should one keep a old f1 in any capicity?

A lot of winter hikers do not not have transcievers of any kind, most back country skiers do.

A f1 is fairly simple to use and it works.

If two people go out for a winter hike in low avalanche conditions why not bring along?

If a extra person wants to winter hike and has no transciever , then what?

If two people, young adults want to back country ski and cant afford expensive transcievers?

Before you answer think of those kids that are always on steep snow, out of bounds or even in bounds during
high avalanche danger. Last year at baker ski resort they required skiers to have transcievers even in bounds
during periods of high avalanche danger on some runs.

Buy new transcievers if like, that is fine,  but like the old simple mustang the f1 can get it done.
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DIYSteve
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PostTue Oct 30, 2018 5:27 pm 
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WaState wrote:
Magnetic field line arks do not slow you down searching for one beacon

Not sure where you're trying to go here. Testing with users of all experience ranges conclude that single antenna induction line searches are slower than triple antenna digital search.

Why?

Flux lines are big sweeping curves. See pic below. A typical induction line search starts with the searcher traveling in a path perpendicular to a straight line to the victim, then gradually arcing back towards the burial. It is not uncommon for a flux line search to not advance at all towards the burial before the flux line starts to arc around to the burial.

A typical (nearly all these days) digital beacon has 3 differently oriented antennas. This allows the flux lines to  be received at, and therefore processed from, 3 different angles. The information is processed (sorta like triangulation) to prompt the searcher to the burial in a much more direct line. With digital, the searcher is always advancing towards the burial.

On average, a grid (binary) search -- the more common way to search with analog beacon -- is no faster than a flux line search. In testing, a digital 3 antenna beacon search is virtually always faster than either analog search method, which of course makes sense because it takes less time to travel a shorter straighter line than a longer more arced line.

Re complexity: Conducting a digital beacon search is much simpler than either analog search method. It's not even close.

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DIYSteve
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PostWed Oct 31, 2018 8:41 am 
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Doppelganger wrote:
Since the orientation of the buried beacon is always going to change.  .  .  .

??? Buried victims tend to not move around much.

Doppelganger wrote:
.  .  .  just to know what my beacon 'sees' and be better able to determine my position within the flux lines

That's what multi-antenna digital beacons do. Actually seeing the 3 vectors plotted might be fun, but for purposes of searching in a real world burial, the microprocessor in a modern 3 antenna digital beacon can process the information much faster, much more efficiently and much more precisely than the smartest human ever could.

For those buying a beacon, check out Avalanche Beacon Reviews, a site created by a very experienced SAR member (who has dug up several avy victims). Start with overview, which observes, in part:

Quote:
All modern avalanche transceivers display an estimate of the distance to the victim (in meters) and a directional indicator that points to the transmitting beacon. Transceivers with only one antenna cannot display a directional indicator and should be retired.

(emphasis added). Also, check out its testing methods page.

If anyone is even thinking of getting an analog beacon instead of a multi-antenna digital beacon,  please perform some real life tests before you make a buying decision. If you do not have access to both types of beacons for testing purposes, PM me and maybe we can work out a short term equipment loan.

I'll sleep better knowing I made an effort to save a life.
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ale_capone
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PostWed Oct 31, 2018 9:30 am 
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i had an ortovox d3 lose its ability to search all together. it was just after the warranty expired, and i had no receipt. ortovox was wtill kind enough to send me a new one. its now my spare.

good reason to do beacon checks often.
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RandyHiker
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PostWed Oct 31, 2018 12:01 pm 
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ale_capone wrote:
good reason to do beacon checks often.

Amen -- and practice searches at least a couple times a season.
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DIYSteve
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PostWed Oct 31, 2018 1:02 pm 
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and skin-by checks every tour
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PostSun Nov 04, 2018 6:40 am 
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DIYSteve wrote:
and skin-by checks every tour

that's the type I meant. should do that every tour!

myself included, but most people should practice with their beacon way more... even quick draw to search mode. if only people could get their beacon out as fast as their cameras!
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