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PostSun Oct 21, 2018 11:33 am 
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RodF wrote:
Cliff Mass' criticism of its merits is non-partisan.

Are you serious?  Cliff Massmedia is about as non-partisan as Mitch McConnell.

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treeswarper
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PostSun Oct 21, 2018 5:21 pm 
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I'm not too sure about that fire statement.  I am of the opinion that climate change has much less to do with fire size and that mismanagement and neglect have much more to do with it.  You've got to remember that the western part of the US has grown massively in population and in CA, houses have been built where fire is part of the ecology but has to be suppressed because people live there now.  Get a gale blowing and something to ignite the brush, and you've got a big, hot fast moving fire.  It's gonna burn hotter if it hasn't burned in a while.

Up here, we've got dog hair stands of unhealthy, buggy, dead, etc.  which are good candidates for a fire.  A lot of the stands are overripe (hence, the bugs) and due to burn.  The FS doesn't sell timber much anymore and there is certainly not enough for budgeting treatment.  Also, the big fires have started in wilderness areas, which is hands off now, so enter the fires.

In my opinion, I'd say mismanagement is the culprit more than anything else.  I agree with Cliff on that.

Now, how much of the money collected by the State would be available to treat forests on federal land?  That's a question for the bureaucrats to figure out, if it is even possible.

The DNR crews did a great job of keeping fires small this year.  Not so for the feds.

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gb
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PostSun Oct 21, 2018 6:09 pm 
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I'll go with what Calfire said during the two record setting (450,000 and 277,000 acres) Northern California this year that climate change is causing wildfires to burn more intensely. More acreage burned is just statistics for which there is plenty of data (in the Western US). See Wildfire Today for graphs. I'll put little weight on what Cliff Mass says. He even cited Eucalyptus as a reason for wildfires in California.  dizzy.gif  dizzy.gif

Quote:
But now we get into the real interesting questions that many are not considering.   What is driving the ups and downs in wildfires?  There are so many factors that must be considered, such as:

1.  The fact that extensive fires are a natural historical part of the ecology of the region
2.  The impacts of a huge increase of human population, creating increasing vulnerability while humans are starting most of the fires.
3.   Climate change that causes warming and changing the precipitation patterns (both wetter and drier) that influence fire frequency and size.
4.  Mismanagement of our forests and wild areas, allowing tree and debris-choked landscapes
5.  Invasive and often highly flammable non-native species brought in by man (e.g., cheatgrass and Eucalyptus)

Calfire on the other hand knows what it is talking about and isn't beholden to special interests:

Quote:
Climate change is likely to impact California and its citizens in many ways, creating new challenges for government and citizens to protect life, property and the environment. Warming trends will affect the health and productivity of our forests, woodlands and rangelands, and will likely alter disturbance regimes, including wildfire, invasive species, and insects and disease outbreaks.

Research scientists predict significant increases in the occurrence of large fires and the amount of acres burned by the end of the century. Studies indicate that wildfire risks to households could easily increase three or four-fold. Wildfires damage wildlife habitat, watersheds and water quality, timber, recreation and other ecosystem services. Smoke from wildfires reduces air quality and impacts public health. Increased wildfire will strain CAL FIRE's existing wildfire suppression capabilities and likely require costly recovery efforts for reforestation, erosion control and flood prevention.

Government and citizens can, however, take steps together and individually to reduce the impacts of wildfire on our homes, communities and ecosystems. Landowners and managers can restore forest vegetation to more fire-resistant and climate-resilient conditions through thinning, brush removal and stand improvement where needed. State and federal agencies can work across ownerships at a landscape level to strategically reduce fire hazards and risks. Communities and local governments can develop community wildfire protection plans and improve land use planning by avoiding future development in high fire hazard areas. Homeowners can protect themselves with fire safe practices and fire resistant construction.

Given limited new funding sources, we will need to leverage resources among agencies, promote public/private partnerships, and focus on projects that provide multiple benefits. One of the ways we can help fund fire hazard management in wildland and urbanizing landscapes is to utilize the woody material removed in fuel reduction projects for bioenergy production. This provides an alternative to fossil fuel use and an associated greenhouse gas benefit, reduces smoke pollution from open burning, and offers economic opportunities in rural communities.

CAL FIRE will continue to work with the U.S. Forest Service, local government, other state and federal agencies, the private sector, the research community and non-governmental organizations to identify climate adaptation needs and opportunities. Together we can accomplish these objectives.

Ken Pimlott, Director
California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection
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PostSun Oct 21, 2018 6:16 pm 
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(yawn)

In a previous thread which was active a month or so back, gb's claims of "record" fires were repeatedly refuted with facts presented. There were much larger fires historically, but gb continues to ignore facts because they don't support his alarmist "global warming" narrative.

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PostSun Oct 21, 2018 6:19 pm 
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Ski wrote:
(yawn)

In a previous thread which was active a month or so back, gb's claims of "record" fires were repeatedly refuted with facts presented. There were much larger fires historically, but gb continues to ignore facts because they don't support his alarmist "global warming" narrative.

450,000 acres and 277,000 acres this year with thousands of people trying to control the fire lines. Who was controlling the fire lines in 1844?
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PostSun Oct 21, 2018 6:33 pm 
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(yawn)

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PostSun Oct 21, 2018 8:26 pm 
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Quote:
I'll go with what Calfire said

Classic appeal to authority fallacy.  I suggest you present actual evidence if you want anyone to listen to you gb.

As for this bill, its obviously a waste of money.  A tax funding government waste and technology that is not ready.

Research to improve the technology would be much wiser.
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Anne Elk
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PostSun Oct 21, 2018 9:22 pm 
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gb wrote:
Mass kowtowed to the energy sector on climate change and that has happened on a number of his other political posts. He does no Washington citizen any favors with his disingenuous statements regarding climate change.

Mass is no climate-change denier, but over the years I've observed he's careful about attribution of any single weather event to CC (His "climate vs weather" distinction, et al). But that hardly makes him a shill for the energy sector.

This past summer's heavy smoke haze in Washington was, I believe, caused more by what drifted down from the fires in BC. Speaking of Canada, one factor that's little talked about (except perhaps by forester types and certain land owners) is the creeping destruction of the western forests by beetle populations which are exploding and spreading - definitely due in part, to climate change. Beetle-killed trees also make forests more fire-susceptible.  Highly recommend Empire of the Beetle by Calgary investigative journalist Andrew Nikiforuk - one of the best environmental writers in Canada. His book on the tar sands was also very good.

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PostMon Oct 22, 2018 5:55 am 
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https://wildfiretoday.com/2018/10/16/washington-dnr-requests-a-record-55-million-budget/

"Because people cause 90 percent of all wildfires, teaching the public about wildfire prevention is another key part of the commissioner’s budget."..... Seems we have another people problem.

Restoring resilient, healthy forests

"To get at the core of the problem, Franz’s budget request includes more than $5.7 million to speed up forest health restoration by creating a division solely committed to forest health. The proposal also asks for $17.7 million in capital budget funds to treat more than 32,000 acres of state, federal and private forests in targeted, high-risk areas."

"To get at the core of the problem"...Seems even Franz agrees with Cliff mass. Or at least she sees an opportunity to take more of our money. The irony is that once again the same people that mismanaged our forest sucking up to political interest like the environmentalist get to scream fire now and grow government and their paychecks. It's like you hiring me to build a house. It falls down a year later and I get to charge you twice as much to put it back up. I do not get how people struggle with understanding this. I think some of it has to do with the mindset of people that get paychecks vs the people that make paychecks.
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PostMon Oct 22, 2018 6:04 am 
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Though I'm voting no on I-1631, I have some issues with Mr. Mass about the current party doing anything at all about climate change.  They control the house, the senate & the white house, and are doing absolutely nothing about it.

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treeswarper
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PostMon Oct 22, 2018 6:07 am 
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It has been my experience that nobody "controls firelines" when the wind is howling and there is fuel to burn (brush and trees).    Yawn. 

He has a valid point about Eucalyptus (sp?).  It was planted in parts of CA (note the line of it north of Eureka along 101) and is very flammable.  However, when the wind is blowing and it is during the dry season and ignition happens, it really doesn't matter what the species is, it's gonna burn. Fire crews are going to be following behind, mopping up or maybe, miles away where safe, swarping out a fireline.  Other than that, when a fire is going and the wind is blowing, you find a safe place and watch.

Calfire's plan for one subdivision (heard this from a resident) was to wait for all the propane tanks to blow up, then go in and mop up.

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PostMon Oct 22, 2018 9:17 am 
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Gregory wrote:
"...the same people that mismanaged our forest sucking up to political interest..."

Ms. Franz is fairly new in her position as DNR Commissioner, elected in 2016 with 53.2% of the vote.
I do not recall either former Commissioners Peter Goldmark or Doug Sutherland proposing any similar type of program.

The "total suppression" policy for dealing with wildfires goes back to about 1910, long prior to Ms. Franz's election to office.

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PostMon Oct 22, 2018 9:32 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
"...about Eucalyptus..."

It was also planted all over Portugal, because it's faster-growing than the native pine, and some genius figured out how to turn it into wood pulp for the paper industry. It's a quick turn-around cash crop.
Unfortunately, it also burns like paper, and once established it's difficult to get rid of - it comes back on its own after it's harvested.

Another example of the unforeseen consequences of introducing non-native species - coming back to bite you in the ass.

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PostMon Oct 22, 2018 9:37 am 
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Ski wrote:
Anne Elk wrote:
"...a consumption tax that falls more heavily on those with modest and fixed incomes. That's a total non-starter for me, given this state has the worst tax structure in the country. Those who can afford it buy Teslas and Priuses, and the poor working stiffs get hit twice: once with the carbon tax, and again when the state decides it doesn't have enough money because people are driving less, and raise the gas tax again.  Lots of folks have no choice but to drive."

The reality that many in local government refuse to accept is the fact that you cannot legislate or tax people out of their single-occupant automobiles.
It doesn't matter how many bike lanes you put in, or how many Sound Transits you build, or how many parking spaces in downtown Seattle you eliminate, you are still going to have millions of people driving cars.
The impact of higher fuel costs on driving habits is short-lived at best, as has been clearly demonstrated over the course of the last several decades.
As noted, this is just another hit on those who can least afford it, and it will more than likely go down in flames.

A massive hit on those who can least afford it, zero accountability, and endlessly increasing costs on fuel with few specifics on spending. The Enviro slush fund from hell brought to you by the same kind of 'planners' who spend hundreds of millions on rail plans .....and then order the wrong sized cars. Fired? No one I'm aware of. Officials or deciders facing fines, prison, personal suits against them? None.

Same things will happen with this kluge. Feeling good about doing 'something' because of what *you* won't choose to do of your own free will on the scale necessary, is not a solution of any kind. .

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PostMon Oct 22, 2018 9:45 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
"...endlessly increasing costs on fuel..."

And how many registered voters actually bothered to read that part of the text of the bill?

The fourteen cents per gallon is just the start.

This makes Sound Transit and the Viaduct Tunnel look like child's play when it comes to taxpayer-funded boondoggle.

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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