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MtnGoat
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PostMon Oct 22, 2018 9:55 am 
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CC wrote:
Are you serious?  Cliff Massmedia is about as non-partisan as Mitch McConnell.

Not being a disaster fabulist is not the same as being partisan. Mass is one of the few making careful statements so he doesn't discredit himself by using poor science in his claims and he has been clear and consistent on not participating in further degrading the claims the IPCC makes by personally staying away from the use of poor science. No matter how tempting it is to attribute weather or fires to 'climate change', he doesn't do so. I disgree with him on his conclusions, but continue to read his work because I respect his refusal to hop on board the climate garbage argument train.

More of his reasons for not supporting the tax increases

Quote:
Instead of explicitly dedicating carbon fee funding to important climate-related needs, I-1631 hands the responsibility of distributing the cash to a 15-member oversight board including five WA state department heads and 10 appointed (by the Governor) individuals. Only one (the Commissioner of Public Lands) is elected. And to add to the bureaucracy, there are three additional advisory boards.  These individuals are not accountable to anyone and they have no explicit plan to work with, other than seventy percent of the fee  must be used for the "clean air and clean energy investments" and twenty five percent for the "clean water and healthy forests".   The Sound Transit debacle shows the dangers of ineffective and wasteful spending by such public boards.

But it is worse than that.  Much worse.  The initiative hardwires money to certain special interest groups--the left-leaning supporters of the measure.  A minimum of ten percent of the money goes to Indian tribes, who are exempted from paying any carbon fee by the initiative. Labor advocates got a fifty million dollar fund, replenished annually, for worker support programs.  And to provide funding to the social action groups pushing the initiative, 35% of the money goes to  "pollution and health action areas" of  minority and "vulnerable populations."  There is more, but you get the message.


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MtnGoat
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PostMon Oct 22, 2018 10:46 am 
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Today's post..the use of climate 'change' as the gravy train for funding 'social' ideological goals as the caboose...or even most of the train.

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Two years ago, another carbon initiative (I-732)  proposed a straightforward revenue-neutral approach that returned all the carbon tax money to the people. It was fair to low-income folks and had the potential to spread around the nation. 

I-732 failed mainly because a group of social action groups (The Alliance), some labor unions, Indian tribes, and a few environment groups (e.g., the Sierra Club) worked against it.  Why?  Because they disliked the revenue neutrality and wanted access to the carbon tax funds.  Concern about climate change was clearly not their priority.

This year, essentially the same group (social action groups, office-worker labor unions, and local Indian tribes) came up with I-1631, which puts a fee on carbon but would use the funds to support the goals of the I-1631 coalition (climate justice, clean up air and water, push clean energy, training of workers, public health).   

The reality....

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These problems are compounded by the fact that many I-1631 supporters have been willing to follow a disturbingly divisive and untruthful approach in their advocacy.



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This claim is TOTAL NONSENSE.   Oil companies will pass on any carbon fee directly to the consumers. They have always done so in the past.  I asked an oil company representative about it...yep, you will get the bill.  So big "polluters" and oil companies won't pay for the I-1631 fee, the citizens of the state will.  The repeated claims by the I-1631 crowd is a total untruth....and they have to know it.

Either that, or their economic illiteracy is so severe they should lose anyway. The two faced nature of arguing they wouldn't need to raise prices on you, while trying to argue you should vote to have your costs raised right off the bat at the pump and then an additional amount every year in perpetuity, raises real questions about their honesty.

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MtnGoat
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PostMon Oct 22, 2018 10:51 am 
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A lot of money to send to 14 unelected, unaccountable to the public deciders with very loosely specified spending targets, most of which are political, not scientific, sinecures and fiefdoms.

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Taxpayers would see the cost of the initiative primarily at the gas pump, in home heating costs, and on their electricity bills.

This translates to between $234 and $305 for the average household in the first year, increasing to $672 and $877 per year after ten years.

The largest portion of the cost would come from a 14-cent-per-gallon gas tax that would increase by about two cents per gallon each year.

No accountability. Even better, *failure* means *increased* taxes....meaning failure brings more $$ and more power. As usual, totally inverted incentives.
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Although the initiative sets CO2 reduction targets, there is no accountability for board members or the state if targets are not met.

Ironically, if the board failed to meet CO2 reduction targets, taxes would be increased, and board members would be given control over more money, providing an incentive to miss the targets.

The initiative would limit and then prohibit third-party CO2 reduction projects, which are often the most effective and efficient.

Among the suggestions for expenditure is that funding be used to increase tolling on state roads, called in the initiative, “traffic demand management.”


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Anne Elk
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PostMon Oct 22, 2018 1:24 pm 
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One thing for sure is that Cliff Mass's blog post proves that the devil is in the details; but so many voters just don't read and think; just react.  I hope there aren't so many "knee jerk" climate alarmists around that this thing gets passed.  We can/should do much better.

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treeswarper
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PostMon Oct 22, 2018 5:06 pm 
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Mountain Goat, ya beat me to it.  I listened to a bit about the initiative that was on public radio.  As usual, Boeing (I assume as they said "aircraft manufacturers) will be one of the exempt industries.  Also an aluminum plant, the soon to be closed coal burning generation plant in the Centralia area, and other large industries.  It's the usual stick it to the little people game.  The reasoning for this?  Jobs and "sharing pollution".  I didn't understand the latter.  I think it was manufactured to take away from the hypocrisy of saving jobs for some people and any tax revenue those corporations pay. 

I do need to see if I can read about it in the Voter's Pamphlet.  I often find my mind drifting elsewhere while ploughing through that.

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PostMon Oct 22, 2018 5:11 pm 
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Oh, a bit more on the CA fires.  I know a guy who lives in Santa Cruz.  He had said in the past it was ready to burn as the county has to approve any tree cutting and also charges a fee for the permit.  He left me with the impression that it is a major pain to get that permit so the trees and brush are not treated.

He also worked somewhere where they were removing the Eucalyptus trees, but I don't think they did much to help.

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PostMon Oct 22, 2018 7:09 pm 
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Given how clean the air is in Washington State, wouldn't it be better to give the revenue to a heavily polluted Chinese city to implement polution controls?
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PostTue Oct 23, 2018 6:31 am 
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thunderhead wrote:
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I'll go with what Calfire said

Classic appeal to authority fallacy.  I suggest you present actual evidence if you want anyone to listen to you gb.

As for this bill, its obviously a waste of money.  A tax funding government waste and technology that is not ready.

Research to improve the technology would be much wiser.

Classic stupidity in believing Cliff Mass as an expert on fire ecology as opposed to fire ecologists.
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treeswarper
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PostTue Oct 23, 2018 6:35 am 
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Well, the name calling has begun and that means the name caller lacks credibility to me.

Do Microsoft and Amazon pollute the air?  If so, do they get exemptions?  Maybe I'll google and see if the corporations who get exemptions are listed.

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PostTue Oct 23, 2018 6:44 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
Oh, a bit more on the CA fires.  I know a guy who lives in Santa Cruz.  He had said in the past it was ready to burn as the county has to approve any tree cutting and also charges a fee for the permit.  He left me with the impression that it is a major pain to get that permit so the trees and brush are not treated.

What makes you think this "guy" knows what he is talking about. He is just some guy.

Quote:
He also worked somewhere where they were removing the Eucalyptus trees, but I don't think they did much to help.

There may have been Eucalyptus trees planted in some areas in California but it was a stupid comment on Mass's part to include that as one of the five factors statistically relevant on the increase in fire acreage burned in the West in recent years. Statistically, that is peanuts, unimportant. To a home owner in fire country that would be relevant if he planted Eucalyptus around his home. But statistically it is meaningless. Just drive to California and look at the forests. They are not exactly flush with Eucalyptus. They are pine/fir forests.
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treeswarper
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PostTue Oct 23, 2018 6:57 am 
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This guy is a fire fighter  with enough credibility that he gives lectures to groups.  He grew up on a ranch in the area.  He's pretty humble (a rare thing these days) and doesn't boast about his "credibility"--might not have a degree to compete with "experts".  I don't ask very many personal questions of folks, but can pretty much tell by listening to them if I'm familiar with the topic.  GB would not consider him to be credible as he might not have the diplomas to back it up. He has been frustrated by the way his county is run.

GB, one thing you need to realize about wildland fire is that when one is out on the line working, diplomas and education don't matter.  Experience and ability to judge the fire behavior do matter.  I know of a "guy" who can't read but I'd follow him without question on a fire incident.

Now, back to the matter at hand.  I could not find any specific names of the big companies that would be exempt, other than the Kettle Falls power plant.

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PostTue Oct 23, 2018 7:20 am 
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gb wrote:
There may have been Eucalyptus trees planted in some areas in California but it was a stupid comment on Mass's part to include that as one of the five factors statistically relevant on the increase in fire acreage burned in the West in recent years. Statistically, that is peanuts, unimportant. To a home owner in fire country that would be relevant if he planted Eucalyptus around his home. But statistically it is meaningless. Just drive to California and look at the forests. They are not exactly flush with Eucalyptus. They are pine/fir forests.

Ummm, ever been to the hinterlands of the Southern part of the state?  I spend a Thanksgiving mopping up after a fire in the chapparal and manzanita in that area.  It was one of the big fire events--Santa Anna winds and ignition.  The brush was above my head. 

The area outside of Redding--Whiskeytown, etc. are a transition area.  The forest is brush mixed with Digger Pine which if I remember correctly might be called Gray Pine now.  It is not a tree with any timber value. 

Towards the west, you get into wetter conditions gradually, with many species of trees, White fir, Doug-fir, Sugar Pine, Ponderosa Pine, Incense Cedar, Port Orford Cedar, Tan Oak, White Oak, and on the north coast you'll finally hit the Redwood areas. 

I worked in the Klamath Country for a few years.  It burns.  It's a mess.  Trees have to compete with brush--poison oak and chaparral grow, plus there deer predation.  Herbicides are not an option on FS land, and mechanical removal is too expensive to treat everything that needs treating.  To me, this area will not be "restored" to a healthy condition as long as the status quo exists.   The brush is flammable, and the fires have burned very hot and killed the overstory.  The new trees are not of a size that they can survive the fires, so while the fires burn every 10 to 20 years, as they should, the young seedlings and saplings are killed, and you have a brush patch.  One benefit of the brush is that it does discourage the deer from browsing on the seedlings until the seedlings grow high enough to have their crowns above deer height.

Oh, and mix in the Sudden Oak Death problem for more roadblocks.  Mustn't forget the Port Orford Cedar problem too.  The latter is spread by spores in water or tracked around by tires and feet.  It kills the Port Orford Cedar. 

To the east of Redding are the Cascade forests.  It's more similar to our eastside forest, and yup, they burn, and will always burn. 

Just like here, there is no one size fits all solution. 

I guess Eucalyptus trees would make a difference if they were planted on land near your house or neighborhood.  I've sure heard it mentioned when the topic of CA fires came up in the past, along with the microsystems of the illegal pot patches that burn.  It's all flammable when a fire is ripping along.  Eucalyptus is just VERY flammable.

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PostTue Oct 23, 2018 7:53 am 
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This bill will increase the cost of pretty much everything in WA state, as energy is a fundamental requirement of all modern technology.

It will have 0 impact on global warming, as it will only cause minor reductions in a tiny fraction of the world.  If it funded research it could have global reach, but it does not.

So basically this bill will force each of us to spend 200 to 300 dollars per year, and increasing, for absolutely no gain.
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PostTue Oct 23, 2018 9:33 am 
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gb wrote:
thunderhead wrote:
Quote:
I'll go with what Calfire said

Classic appeal to authority fallacy.  I suggest you present actual evidence if you want anyone to listen to you gb.

As for this bill, its obviously a waste of money.  A tax funding government waste and technology that is not ready.

Research to improve the technology would be much wiser.

Classic stupidity in believing Cliff Mass as an expert on fire ecology as opposed to fire ecologists.

It's something else classic, to claim something which is not in evidence.

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PostTue Oct 23, 2018 9:39 am 
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thunderhead wrote:
This bill will increase the cost of pretty much everything in WA state, as energy is a fundamental requirement of all modern technology.

It will have 0 impact on global warming, as it will only cause minor reductions in a tiny fraction of the world.  If it funded research it could have global reach, but it does not.

So basically this bill will force each of us to spend 200 to 300 dollars per year, and increasing, for absolutely no gain.

Oh, there will be gain all right...by the subsidees/recipients of the cash.... and the political power which goes with it.

It's funny how this works...people who actually do use political power to mine other people for resources on the basis of climate 'change' are lauded, while the folks not interested in being cash machines for them... are labeled all kinds of not nice things.

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